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  1. #321
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,030

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    What problem?

    Being skeptical isn't considered a problem.

    It's what happens when you aren't skeptical that causes problems. Can we agree on that Mark?

    There's no need for fat bees, or piles of empty deeps/supers or any of the other distractions to make a powerhouse honey hive.

    You shouldn't need a tall ladder to harvest honey.

    It's a bunch of gimmicks that detract from the intent of the MDA Splitter method of chemical free beekeeping.

    It's about two operations: one for outbreeding mites, the other for making powerhouse honey hives.

    Maybe Tim should get a cape and a lovely assistant?

  2. #322
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,485

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    So, in a way, it's your fault I'm here being contentious.
    Then I done good.

    Don't review Solomon Parker's first Threads. You'll change your mind about me. lol
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  3. #323
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,485

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    What problem?

    Being skeptical isn't considered a problem.

    It's what happens when you aren't skeptical that causes problems. Can we agree on that Mark?

    There's no need for fat bees, or piles of empty deeps/supers or any of the other distractions to make a powerhouse honey hive.

    You shouldn't need a tall ladder to harvest honey.

    It's a bunch of gimmicks that detract from the intent of the MDA Splitter method of chemical free beekeeping.

    It's about two operations: one for outbreeding mites, the other for making powerhouse honey hives.

    Maybe Tim should get a cape and a lovely assistant?
    Nothing wrong w/ skepticism. I think I am about as skeptical as anyone, except you. I think you take skepticism to a higher level. Almost painting someone as a liar, when they haven't written a word in our Forums.

    And your criticism of Randy Oliver? Seems kinda petty and snarky. (must be a better word I just can't think what it would be)
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  4. #324
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,018

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I'm a 60 year old overweight, sleep deprived, cranky beekeeper who works alone.
    Well, if you'd only introduced yourself this way.....

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Don't review Solomon Parker's first Threads. You'll change your mind about me. lol
    Not my original first threads, just the first ones when I returned to the forum after quite a few years off. That would be about February 2011, my post numbers from about 176 to 1500. Yeah, I remember that.

    I'd have probably eight hundred more if not for the deleted ones.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  5. #325
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,430

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    You were pretty wired then. Pun intended!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #326
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,030

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I've called Tim 'entertaining'.

    Tim told Randy exactly what he wanted to hear (vg/fat bees).

    I've pointed out that we're not really talking about the 'substance' of treatment free beekeeping.

    We're caught up in the peripheral issues.

    If someone wants a more substantive view of this type of TF beekeeping, go to MDA Splitter and Mel will give it to you.

    It's a reasonable first step.

    I wouldn't say the same for what Tim is doing. Too much show, not enough substance.

  7. #327
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    24,485

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Okay.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  8. #328
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,030

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Otherwise someone is likely to end up on top of a tall ladder by a stack of empty bodies and supers.

    Not a good first step.

  9. #329
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    24,485

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Have you seen the photos from Old Bee Books? Tall hives have historically been rather common. Not that tall hives necassarily mean huge crops. But, there are videos of honey harvesting showing beekeepers taking 6 and 8 full boxes of honey off of 40 colony yards. It does happen. And you don't need to follow MDA methodology.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  10. #330
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,030

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    The point of the MDA Splitter method is that you can keep bees, chemical free, and enjoy honey producing hives. Outbreed mites, make powerhouse honey hives.

    It's not about enjoying the view from high up (gee my bees look small from up here).

    It's treatment free beekeeping, with alot of management thrown in.

    Why is everyone so fixated on really tall hives?

  11. #331
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,595

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Just to point out that there are some actual advantages to harvesting more honey from fewer hives - IE "Tall Hives" Assuming a beekeeper has a goal of producing X amt of honey - "tall hives" allow that goal to be achieved with fewer hives. Fewer hives to care for, inspect, medicate, feed, requeen, etc. Less equipment required - same number of honey supers, but less of everything else. Less space needed in the apiary. Less start up cost. As a general rule fewer hives = less work. Some justifiable feeling of accomplishment to be gained from beating the average. Maybe some folks just think it's kind of cool to make a lot of honey from fewer hives.

    Every bee keeper has their own reasons and goals.

  12. #332
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Posts
    5,018

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    One of the reasons I developed the cube hives was to save on height. By comb area, the cube hives are 2/3 the height of a normal Langstroth style hive. I don't have any data yet, they have not yet grown into their boxes.

    Tim is right though, large hives do limit swarming. Keeping comb on hives in the off season saves on required storage space, even though he doesn't do that as far as I can tell.

    I don't like the idea of multiple sizes of boxes/frames. I don't like the idea of excessive management, however he has not claimed such. The benefit to my operation seems fairly limited because I don't have continuing nectar flows throughout the year. If dearth kills off the clover, there's precious little to be had after black locust is over. There's a tiny bit of goldenrod, but I never harvest that. I already keep my hives larger than most of them will fill or grow to. Occasionally, I'll get a six deep, but usually only one a year. I don't take much honey below the fourth deep.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #333
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,030

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Looking over Mel's version of how to put together a powerhouse hive.

    He's using about 20 frames of brood from 3 or 4 hives to do that.

    2 or 3 queens would end up in nucs to start over again.

    That might become a consideration if you could make more money from making increases. Nucs, splits, etc. .

    Of course, if the weather/nectar flow doesn't cooperate, you've just gathered alot of resources and put them in the wrong place.

    It's tough to say if a tower hive is worth the gamble. You can always feed your hives to make more bees. But that's not an option if the flow doesn't go well, and alot of brood is no longer available for making more bees (they're in the towers).

    That flow would really need to be a good one to make it worth the risk.

  14. #334
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,464

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Actually. his 400 lbs from 3 deep brood chambers is not that good. Per my "Scale hive report" of 2012, one deep made 150 lbs. Three deeps (added) made 450 lbs, and I did not have to use a step ladder. It is all about the use of capital. What money did he make with what investment?

    Either way, time will solve this one too. Let's see how long he sticks around. We've seen this before, and we will see this again.

    BTW, as the crow flies, he is about 100 miles from me. If the lake froze, a quick drive.

    Crazy Roland Diehnelt, 5th gen beekeeper.
    Linden Apiary, est. 1852

  15. #335
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    43,492

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    >It is all about the use of capital.

    And not spending all your capital on back surgery...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #336
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,042

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    my original comment was 'to each his own'.

    the cool thing about this forum is that there are no two beekeepers that do things exactly the same way.

    i have really benefited from getting exposed to all of the different approaches and applying what is useful to my apiary.

    as i mentioned working tall hives isn't something that appeals to me but i wouldn't criticize anyone for wanting to do it.

    as roland and the others point out, three deeps used as singles can net close to the same honey combined as having the three stacked.

    back problems seem to be common among long time beekeepers, something i will do my best to avoid at all costs.

    mb, in your all medium hives do you find that the bottom box or two is full of pollen at the end of your main flow?
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  17. #337
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    43,492

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    >mb, in your all medium hives do you find that the bottom box or two is full of pollen at the end of your main flow?

    In recent years since going to eight frame mediums, I've done more and more management by the box and don't dig down that deep very often. I guess I should pay more attention, but that would be my guess, that the bottom box has a lot of pollen.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #338
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,042

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    understood, thanks michael.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  19. #339
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Top box is upper entrance... Most are insulated. I'm in the snow belt of Lake Michigan, nothing to get 2' of snow. Anyone that knows me, knows how much I'm against feeding.... Junk food= junk bees

    Brood area needs to be 1/3 of hive space..

  20. #340
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    18 frames of brood is each 21 day cycle NOT 9 frames. A 3 deep system broods up before a nearly starving 2 deep system. Then over the NEXT 2 brood cycles, a 3 deep system has 50% more brood vs a 2 deep system= 300% more bees 18 frames + 6 frames+ 6 frames= you need a ladder to super..... Brood area MUST be 1/3 of total hive space.

    Whoever said I work construction full time and tend hives... False.... I haven't worked construction since 10/2009. Bee's not dying and construction slow. Any guesses what I'm doing?

    Supers weight around 50# unless your using one piece Pierco frames 10% more. 34# of honey is a good average on supers. Yes... 400# is a good average on Supered hives. Are all hives supered? No...mathematically impossible to ever have enough supers. 50% are supered the rest is split one hive into 3.


    O yes....Some very comical posts on here. Thanks for the laughs.

    Who ever said they got 150# off a single deep hive. You are in a GOOD honey area and I would get 1000# off one of these hives.........

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