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  1. #301
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Over on the Indiana Board, Tim states that his 3 story yards average the world record in honey production -404 lbs/hive (I have no idea what the WR is). Some hives at the 500+ level.

    I had no idea that Indiana was such a honey production state, unless it is solely due to his methodology.

    I understand the 18 frame claim now... but it certainly was not clear early on, or in the links provided.

    I wonder where all the Indiana beekeepers on here are? Surely they would be familiar with this production phenomena....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  2. #302
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    2,644

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    [QUOTE=rhaldridge;936107

    As far as Randy Oliver's well-known penchant for being gullible, I think I detect the faint acrid odor of professional jealousy. To me, that seems a far more plausible motivation for making up a story about another beekeeper... a story that has, let me remind everyone, absolutely no demonstrable basis in fact. I'll remind folks that Randy was there, talked with Tim, talked with a number of his peers in the area. If Tim were using some variation of the Disselkoen system, don't you think that might have come up?

    I have to say that this is the strangest little example of believing what you want to believe and disregarding the rest that I've seen yet on this forum.

    Ah well.[/QUOTE]

    Randys penchant for gullible??? Hmm I think things have been put out that are off. But I may be mistaken. I have never seen Randy praise his exceptional honey production... Randy only pointed out hes doing just great as treatment free in the middle if a apple orchard with 3 neionics coatings a year, and miles of soybeans and corn...... maybe I missed the lines, but Randy and gullible in the same sentence doesn't sit right.

  3. #303
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by BernhardHeuvel View Post
    Thank you!

    I actually took the trouble to join the forum, and I looked at other posts Tim has made. Most involve pretty strong diatribes against the use of sugar. Anyone who could look at what he's saying, and still believe that he feeds his bees in secret, must be a world-class mental contortionist. He's the VP of the Michiana bee club, a strong and active organization, it appears. If he were lying about his practices, you'd think some of his club's members would say something to him on the forum.

    I'll just leave this quote here:

    Overall winter losses.. 135 lost out of 706. 19.1% losses. Taking my and 8 other sugar free guys (22 lost out of 270 = 8.14% losses) out of the candyland equation. 113 lost out of 436... 25.91% losses.
    Let me interpret: the bee club as a whole suffered 19.1% losses. Tim Ives and 8 other sugar free beekeepers suffered 8.14% losses. Those who fed sugar suffered 25.91% losses.

  4. #304
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Randys penchant for gullible??? Hmm I think things have been put out that are off. But I may be mistaken. I have never seen Randy praise his exceptional honey production... Randy only pointed out hes doing just great as treatment free in the middle if a apple orchard with 3 neionics coatings a year, and miles of soybeans and corn...... maybe I missed the lines, but Randy and gullible in the same sentence doesn't sit right.
    It was said by that learned but devoutly anonymous fellow who knows the Truth behind Tim Ives' claims... by a process of divination or maybe crystal gazing. It isn't clear to me.

    Just because Randy is gullible (and I do know that he's fallen for 'stories' before in a big way), doesn't mean that we need to be. However, it's OK to laugh heartily at this one.

    Can I help it if Randy isn't a degreed Biologist (I am), and can't follow some of the recent work being done on neuroplasticity in Honeybees?

    WLC.
    Does it smell a little odd in here, or have I just been out to the cow barn?

  5. #305
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Wow. World Record Honey crops. No feeding. Fat Bees. Tower hives with empty supers.

    If it smells funny, it's the hot air coming from the story as it deflates.

    Remember, I didn't buy it.

  6. #306
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Wow. World Record Honey crops. No feeding. Fat Bees. Tower hives with empty supers.

    If it smells funny, it's the hot air coming from the story as it deflates.

    Remember, I didn't buy it.
    Ah yes. The old "I alone am right" gambit. So.. let me see if I have this right. Your only actual point is based on a misreading of an article by an amateur writer-- the idea that Tim is claiming 18 frames of brood appearing in his hives as if by magic. You apparently didn't notice the qualifiers "after pollen starts coming in" and "2 brood cycles." You are also relying on ridiculing the notion of "fat bees," an attempt by Randy Oliver to make a scientific concept understandable to those without the training you claim to have. Your ridicule appears to encompass the Phds whose work he cites in his popularized article. You claim Tim is using a system that requires heavy feeding, and for some reason you are eager to ignore the accounts of numerous observers of his yards, as well as his own strongly expressed antipathy to feeding. You have no actual firsthand knowledge of any of the facts put forward. Your posts are riddled with logical fallacies, chief among them an Appeal to Authority that you are unwilling to substantiate, except by your unsupported claim of being an "expert."

    If anything is being deflated, it does not seem to be Tim's story.

    Oh, what the heck. Maybe you're right, and Tim is a devious charlatan who is breeding bees in secret places that none of his fellow beekeepers know about, and somehow managing to feed those massive hives without anyone finding out. With an evil mastermind this diabolically clever, I think we need to worry about more than him corrupting our sacred beekeeping institutions. He may be out to take over the world. Him and Pinky.

  7. #307
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    Dec 2002
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    5,079

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    The only way to get rid of trolls to ignore them.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  8. #308
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Well, I hope this experience hasn't thrown you off this forum.
    No worries. I was squabbling with my fellow science fiction writers back before there was a web. On Fidonet.

    I know all the ploys by now, and on some level, I guess I must find it entertaining. I have many other character flaws.

  9. #309
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I'd say stop squabbling, but I'd be a hypocrite.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  10. #310
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I simply don't believe some of the claims being made.

    Nor do I believe that what's being reported as Tim's methodology is accurate.

    For example, what proof do we have that Tim did in fact achieve a World Record Honey crop from his hive(s)?

    I've read that Tim does in fact feed back both honey stores and pollen to his hives in early March.

    That's how he's building up brood. 2 cycles= aprox 42 days, so they're ready about the middle of/or late April.

    However, the truly vg ladden winter caste of bees is long gone since they will age normally once exposed to 2 brood cycles (brood pherormone/FAEEs cause(s) the change).

    So, he's does feed despite what's being reported here, and those aren't truly 'Fat Bees' that he has after 2 brood cycles.

    However, I will agree that he does have the resources to construct powerhouse honey hives.

    We simply don't have all of the correct details.

    Don't blame me.

  11. #311
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    This would give me a huge belly laugh...if it wasn't so sad. The idea that if someone isn't posting to beesource, it must be because they are avoiding it or scared isn't a new one. What an absurd contention.

    deknow
    Who said anything about anyone being scared? I didn't say that. You did.

    He has Posted on beesource in the past, hasn't he? Why do you suppose he isn't now? There are plenty of people speaking for him. But, no one can be as explicite as Tim Ives himself.

    You never answered my previous question Dean. Does Tim run all of his colonies TF? Or just some of them?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  12. #312
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Beekeepers seem to have a certain scientific bend to their thinking. For those that do, it is only natural for them to be skeptical and to expect data and proof when they encounter something far from their experience.

    Tim claims a 400 lb average in a state with a 43 lb/hive (av) and only 8000 hives (2012). Of course all data have outliers, but how many standard deviations out from the average is 400 Lb? It is not really surprising that we would be skeptical.

    Tim's production alone would account for a sizeable portion of the states entire honey harvest.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  13. #313
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Who said anything about anyone being scared? I didn't say that. You did.

    He has Posted on beesource in the past, hasn't he? Why do you suppose he isn't now? There are plenty of people speaking for him. But, no one can be as explicite as Tim Ives himself.

    You never answered my previous question Dean. Does Tim run all of his colonies TF? Or just some of them?
    Mark, Dean didn't answer because I did. Tim has never treated any of his colonies and this resulted in very high losses in the first few years he kept bees.

    I'm not aware that he has ever posted on Beesource. He seems not to be a publicity seeker. When I asked him if he'd published anything on his methods, he said no. The only reason I became aware of his existence was through Randy Oliver's articles.

    If you have questions for him, you can find his email address on a page I posted a link to further up the thread. He was happy to answer my questions, and I'm just a beginner who probably didn't even know the questions to ask.

  14. #314
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    As he put it, the only difference between a queen and a worker is the diet she is fed; it only makes sense that diet is extremely important to bees.

    And finally, what do you folks imagine is the point of this purported deception? He doesn't have a book out to promote. He doesn't sell bees, as far as I know. What is his motivation?
    Well, that isn't the only difference. Cell orientation has something to do w/ making a fertilized egg into a queen. I've never heard of anyone making a queen simply by feeding a worker egg and larvae extra brood food. Not that anyone said anything like that.

    I would not say that Tim Ives is scamming anyone. That is WLC's hangup. I do question the math. Coming to us second handed. I wish Tim were here to clear things up.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  15. #315
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Ignoring the claims that are made, ie, world record honey production, etc, and just going by video evidence that I can see, I don't quite know what all the fuss is about.

    I see a hive stacked up incredibly high with boxes that are virtually empty, and not many bees in them. The hives shown, have less bees than any of my production hives in season, just a massive heap of boxes. What's all the fuss?

    Going by some videos I've seen posted here by some of the commercial beeks, his hives have less bees than the US commercial hives I have seen.

    However, the way his hives are set up, if there was an incredibly strong flow, I'm pretty sure they could put away an impressive crop. I'd like to see the harvest video. Going by bee numbers in the hives, I can't really see world record though.

    As to what seems to be the other bone of contention, the 18 frames of brood claim, the original statement is confusing, ie, what does 18 frames of brood over 2 cycles mean? Me, I have no idea.

    If it simply means 18 frames over 3 boxes, with various amounts of brood, nothing really ultra remarkable about that.

    For purposes of comparison with Tim's video, I have posted a pic of a hive with a normal complement of bees in the supers. The hive with the lid off is 6 deeps, which if med boxes had been used for honey would be around 8 boxes total, similar to Tim's, just, a lot more bees in my hives. By the way, the smaller hives pictured are not because they have been used to boost the bigger hives, it is because ALL the hives pictured were left over nucs, some only been put in boxes within the last couple months. They are 10 frame deeps, I spread the combs wider in honey boxes to 8 frames per 10 frame box to make easier honey extracting, plus the bees can get more honey in a box.

    Not trying to detract from Tim at all, I'm sure he has developed a method to get a good crop. The method appears successful in his area, it will not be successful in some other areas.

    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-07-2013 at 03:26 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #316
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    "I would not say that Tim Ives is scamming anyone. That is WLC's hangup."

    Not really. We're just playing 'Telephone' and it appears that conflicting messages are coming in.

    However, nothing is really corroborating with the story.

  17. #317
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Beekeepers seem to have a certain scientific bend to their thinking. For those that do, it is only natural for them to be skeptical and to expect data and proof when they encounter something far from their experience.
    Well, do you feel that Randy Oliver has a scientific bent? He actually visited the guy, talked to him at length, visited his yards. Surprisingly enough, he reached a completely different conclusion than a guy who has done none of those things. Who has more credibility here?

    I know very little about beekeeping. But I know quite a bit about thinking critically, and to me, this is an easy call. On one side you have data, witnesses, and actual videos and pictures. On the other, you have conjecture and innuendo.

    Which is more convincing?

  18. #318
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Mark, I didn't present it at all. It was a bit seized out of context by the guy who's fabricated a factfree theory regarding Tim Ives' practices. I didn't even know what he was talking about until I went back and looked at the article again. He presented it as if 18 frames of brood magically appeared prior to the first flow, which is absurd. Nothing even remotely like that was being claimed. I interpreted the article to mean that the queen laid 18 frames of brood over 2 brood cycles, which is pretty much exactly what it says. You yourself mentioned the usual ratio of brood frames to honey and pollen frames. If you'll notice, the claim of 9 frames of brood per brood cycle in a 3 deep setup (30 frames in all) comes pretty close to matching that ratio exactly. The point that was being made in the article was Tim's belief that a three deep brood nest produces 50 percent more bees per cycle than a two deep setup; it's about bee numbers. You can certainly argue with that belief, and I have no idea if it's correct. What it most certainly is not is a smoking gun that destroys Tim Ives' credibility, which is what is being claimed by a certain academic with no actual knowledge of the situation.

    Draw your own conclusions.
    I guess I have read so many Posts in this Thread that I can't recall who wrote what. Sorry. I also don't know what WLC's problem is.

    I'd have to ask Tim Ives himself, but I don't see the magic (my word) of a third deep. Considering that when the colony has just come thru the Winter that bottom deep is bound to be empty and all the brood frames will be in the upper one or two boxes. I've hardly ever seen a queen go down into the emptiness below where brood is being laid. He must be rotating deeps to put empty space above the brood area.

    By the way. You've met me so you know some of this is true. I'm a 60 year old overweight, sleep deprived, cranky beekeeper who works alone. There's a reason for that. Impatience. So, I apologize if I came down too hard on you for your Novice Status. Obviously you know how to research and read and understand what you read. Most of it anyway.

    How did you get acquainted w/ Tim Ives?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  19. #319
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Mark, Dean didn't answer because I did. Tim has never treated any of his colonies and this resulted in very high losses in the first few years he kept bees.

    I'm not aware that he has ever posted on Beesource. He seems not to be a publicity seeker. When I asked him if he'd published anything on his methods, he said no. The only reason I became aware of his existence was through Randy Oliver's articles.

    If you have questions for him, you can find his email address on a page I posted a link to further up the thread. He was happy to answer my questions, and I'm just a beginner who probably didn't even know the questions to ask.
    That's fine. But I like folks I ask a question of to answer. Simply a sign of respect. Hmmm, maybe that's a sign of something.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  20. #320
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    By the way. You've met me so you know some of this is true. I'm a 60 year old overweight, sleep deprived, cranky beekeeper who works alone. There's a reason for that. Impatience. So, I apologize if I came down too hard on you for your Novice Status. Obviously you know how to research and read and understand what you read. Most of it anyway.

    How did you get acquainted w/ Tim Ives?
    Mark, you've been nothing but extremely kind to me, kinder than I deserve. In fact, it was you and the other members of the club that meets in Canton that made me start thinking I'd like to finally try my hand at beekeeping, last summer.

    So, in a way, it's your fault I'm here being contentious. That's a terrible way to repay you, I know.

    I came across a mention of Tim when I was reading Randy Oliver's online publications. He seemed interesting, so I used my Googlefu to learn more.

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