Page 15 of 29 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast
Results 281 to 300 of 565
  1. #281
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,132

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    My own training, was we get more honey overall, if all hives are equal. So we did kind of the opposite of what we are being told Tim does. In spring, before any supers were added, all hives in the yard were equalised. IE, strong ones that might swarm had brood and bees taken, and this was given to the weak. A few months later when the hives were stacked with boxes, there were no duds or poor performers. So, none swarmed, none didn't produce, and none had to haul honey through excessively huge stacks of boxes, the production capacity of all was maximised.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I'm old and feeble, so his system is impractical for me. But he handles 150 hives and works a full time job as a carpenter, I believe.
    Something does not quite add up here, unless Tim never sleeps. He works full time as a carpenter. He manages 150 hives. He is a speaker in high demand who attends conferences and assorted speaking engagements. And based on the figures we've been told he processes at least 75 tons of honey annually. Not saying it isn't true, just, well, he's an amazing guy. Definitely the stuff of legend.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #282
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    If the 'Fat Bee' claim didn't make Barry smile, nothing will.

  3. #283
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,284

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    The article says 18 frames over two brood cycles. That's 9 frames per cycle, 3 frames per box. I'm a beginner, so can someone tell me why that's implausible in a three deep hive with large stores, and pollen coming in?
    It's not implausible. But I don't think you presented it that way before. I'm not sure I understand what 18 frames over two brood cycles means. 18 frames of capped brood? 18 frames of all stages?

    I suspect the bottom box, full of comb, is otherwise empty. I don't understand why three deeps is necessary. I have known beekeepers in The North Country who ran three deep hives. But they did so so they wouldn't have to lean over so much.

    I have also seen hives which we had to stand on the truck deck to break down. Bees won't put honey in the boxes if they aren't on the hives. It doesn't mean all of those boxes get filled. Some hives will, some times.

    There is much we don't understand. Too bad Tim Ives won't explain these things to us. I can well imagine he is tired of doing so, having to defend his methods. When he'd rather simply do his beework. That's just an assumption of mine, not based on much other than something someone named Tim wrote me. I'm not sure it was Tim Ives though. But, his absence speaks for itself. He could speak up, but doesn't want to. Which is his privelidge. (not being critical)
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  4. #284
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,284

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    My own training, was we get more honey overall, if all hives are equal. So we did kind of the opposite of what we are being told Tim does. In spring, before any supers were added, all hives in the yard were equalised. IE, strong ones that might swarm had brood and bees taken, and this was given to the weak. A few months later when the hives were stacked with boxes, there were no duds or poor performers. So, none swarmed, none didn't produce, and none had to haul honey through excessively huge stacks of boxes, the production capacity of all was maximised.

    Something does not quite add up here, unless Tim never sleeps. He works full time as a carpenter. He manages 150 hives. He is a speaker in high demand who attends conferences and assorted speaking engagements. And based on the figures we've been told he processes at least 75 tons of honey annually. Not saying it isn't true, just, well, he's an amazing guy. Definitely the stuff of legend.
    He has a clone? Or a twin perhaps? He's single and an insomniac? He spends no time on beesource?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  5. #285
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I doubt that he has 150 towers of power.

    Those 150 hives probably represent the support hives he needs for the towers of power and the splits/nucs for outbreeding mites.

    I would not want to be the beekeeper with a puny single deep anywhere near his tower hives.

    You might say that he's sacrificing other aspects of hive productivity to focus on honey production with those towers.

  6. #286
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,748

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Too bad Tim Ives won't explain these things to us. I can well imagine he is tired of doing so, having to defend his methods. When he'd rather simply do his beework. That's just an assumption of mine, not based on much other than something someone named Tim wrote me. I'm not sure it was Tim Ives though. But, his absence speaks for itself. He could speak up, but doesn't want to. Which is his privelidge. (not being critical)
    This would give me a huge belly laugh...if it wasn't so sad. The idea that if someone isn't posting to beesource, it must be because they are avoiding it or scared isn't a new one. What an absurd contention.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  7. #287
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,748

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    It wasn't so long ago that the common wisdom was that one couldn't overwinter nucs in the north reliably.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  8. #288
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    "This would give me a huge belly laugh...if it wasn't so sad. The idea that if someone isn't posting to beesource, it must be because they are avoiding it or scared isn't a new one. What an absurd contention."

    Dean, I've just had a terrible thought.

    Maybe his tower fell over on him and he's trapped?

    Quick, get over there!

  9. #289
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    4,149

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    David:

    The key is that you don't want uncapped brood (or even a laying queen!) in that type of tower hive.

    That's why the capped brood, and any bees you shake or combine into the tower will gather and store so much honey. They're basically just foragers, comb builders, and honey makers.
    I did it like that last year with 3 hives and it does makes a lot of honey. But it was still a lot of work and seemed stressful to the hives - at least that's how it seemed to me.

    Anyway, this year my experiment is with queenright hives that I pumped up with extra brood, and then extra foragers by removing an adjoining hive just as the main flow started so that all of it's foragers would join the remaining honey production hive. Those hives will mostly become mating nucs. What started out as a rather mediocre hives 6 weeks ago are presently performing like exceptional hives.

    Like I said, it's an experiment.

  10. #290
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,185

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    "

    Dean, I've just had a terrible thought.

    Maybe his tower fell over on him and he's trapped?

    Quick, get over there!
    Good job WLC on sorting this one out. It was an interesting case. I don't believe he is a con man either..... just a guy that get's a big kick out jerking people around.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  11. #291
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,624

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    It does appear that WLC has most likely nailed it. But, hey, it's apparently a treatment free management system that is working for him albeit one that is labor and resource intensive. It's only a scam if one chooses to believe that resources to build a hive like this don't require multiple queenright colonies to make one "tower". It also dosent mean that Randy Oliver or any of us are gullible (let's remember that the reason Randy was there was to see if someone can raise strong colonies in an area where corn was the predominate crop) And it's not going to result in these types of yields just anywhere, nectar availability is, of course, a necessary component. Those issues aside, go get em Tim. And if Mike Palmer hasn't already answered the question of whether bees can thrive in an area where corn is a major crop, here's one more piece of evidence.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #292
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Maybe I'm naive for reading, but it seems to say "10-18" not "18." And I don't see anything about "18 frames of capped brood."

    I've certainly seen 10, and I have seen 20 through three deeps. I don't see what's the big hairy deal.

    Assuming 3000 cells available for brood on a frame (http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...o-a-Deep-Frame) and and a worker lifecycle of about 21 days, and a queen laying 2000-3000 eggs per day as mentioned in the article, I'm still not seeing a problem.

    Maybe this isn't the average, but math and experience seem to say that it is quite possible and in a good operation might even be fairly normal.

    I don't have some fantastical degree in biology but I do have a MSCE, and I know how to do some basic math.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #293
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Judging by the photo of the tower hive, I'd estimate that there are alot more resources being used than is described.

    Did Tim acknowledge Mel or MDA Splitter at any time?

    By the way, I'm simply saying that the fat bee contention is the 'gullibility' issue.

  14. #294
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Unbelievable.

    Otherwise intelligent folk are going to accept a long distance analysis conducted on the basis of, I don't know, telepathy? that completely ignores the statements of the beekeeper himself?

    18 frames of brood? I quoted the article that said explicitly that it was over 2 brood cycles. Here. let me quote it again:

    In Tim's area, March 11 on average, pollen starts coming in. He says a typical 2 hive body system will start laying at this time and over the next 2 brood cycles (21 days) a 2 hive body system will average 12 frames of brood, but a 3 hive body system will average 18 since it incurred an earlier cycle.
    Mel Disselkoen's system requires feeding. Tim does not feed. He told me that this is partly a result of his own experience; he used to drink a dozen sodas a day, and in fact, he took up beekeeping right after he gave up eating sugar, something he did for health reasons. He is quite serious about not feeding; it is a cornerstone of his philosophy, As he put it, the only difference between a queen and a worker is the diet she is fed; it only makes sense that diet is extremely important to bees.

    Did no one but me see that video of Tim taking the tar paper off a three deep hive in early March? Is the theory here that he packed that hive with brood from, I don't know, a dozen hothouse hives at some point prior to rewrapping it with felt, just so he could amaze folks with the density of bees in that hive? Really?

    And finally, what do you folks imagine is the point of this purported deception? He doesn't have a book out to promote. He doesn't sell bees, as far as I know. What is his motivation?

    As far as Randy Oliver's well-known penchant for being gullible, I think I detect the faint acrid odor of professional jealousy. To me, that seems a far more plausible motivation for making up a story about another beekeeper... a story that has, let me remind everyone, absolutely no demonstrable basis in fact. I'll remind folks that Randy was there, talked with Tim, talked with a number of his peers in the area. If Tim were using some variation of the Disselkoen system, don't you think that might have come up?

    I have to say that this is the strangest little example of believing what you want to believe and disregarding the rest that I've seen yet on this forum.

    Ah well.

  15. #295
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Ray,

    I dare say you haven't been here long, and you ain't seen nothin' yet.

    I'm not disagreeing with you, maybe I'm missing something, or maybe I'm reading the wrong link. In either case, I don't see anything impossible about this scenario in a 3 deep plus hive. I can't speak to the honey produced because we don't get that kind of nectar profile around here. "Tim's hives have 3 deep boxes for brood chambers, and it's common to have 10-18 frames of bood in its peak, and 10 and 12 supers on them during honey flows."

    There is a pernicious trait common in this forum not to believe or accept what others say, that's why it's written in the forum rules. "Please avoid making any kind of accusation toward another forum user. Do not impugn their motives, do not question their skills, and do not use pejoratives. Be responsible and do not post offering advice about things you have not experienced and methods you have not used." Remember, though this is the Treatment-Free Beekeeping Forum, it is populated largely by beekeepers who treat. Don't let it get on your nerves too often.


    Post all the links you want:
    http://www.indianahoney.org/2013/02/...-Corn-Belt.cfm
    It doesn't mean they're gonna get read. One of my favorite Dean Stiglitz quotes goes something to the effect of "staring at a link for a couple of seconds is not the best way to prepare for discussing its contents." Complete paraphrase.
    Last edited by Solomon Parker; 05-07-2013 at 11:47 AM. Reason: Name
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  16. #296
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Solomon, my name is Ray Aldridge; call me Ray.

    I'm just surprised. You'd think that in evaluating the veracity of an allegation, people would remember the basic logical dictum that primary sources are primary. In this case we have several primary sources. There's Randy Oliver, who folks are apparently eager to believe when he reinforces their own views regarding pesticides and treatment, but if not... he suddenly morphs into a gullible undereducated fool who has been taken in by an Indiana slickster. There's this article from the newsletter of an Indiana club, which contains no mention of any brood packing scheme. There's my own correspondence with the guy. There's Dean's report from the talk he attended. There's video, for heaven's sake.

    Apparently the existence of a treatment free beekeeper with low winter losses, big healthy hives, and high productivity is such a threatening idea that folks would prefer to believe a conspiracy theory cooked up by someone with no personal knowledge of the situation, using the well-established scientific method of wildeyed speculation.

    People are strange.

  17. #297
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,185

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Mr. Haldridge (assuming I got that right),



    Post all the links you want:
    http://www.indianahoney.org/2013/02/...-Corn-Belt.cfm
    It doesn't mean they're gonna get read. One of my favorite Dean Stiglitz quotes goes something to the effect of "staring at a link for a couple of seconds is not the best way to prepare for discussing its contents." Complete paraphrase.
    I think I have read every link... some twice... and viewed the videos.... mainly because I was interested in how this could be true. Tim's success humbles my puny efforts and so I got curious.

    I just came in from inspecting some of my better hives - Those with 6 frames of brood I was rather proud of. But since we are now talking bout 2 cycles (42 days??) I could perhaps refer to these as 12 frame hives??

    So really... if I walked out to one of Tim's 3 stories... and did an inspection I would count 9 frames on his best and 5 frames of brood on his worst?


    I dare say you haven't been here long, and you ain't seen nothin' yet.
    Amen to that! This is a very polite and genteel discussion
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  18. #298

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1


  19. #299
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I'm just surprised.
    Well, I hope this experience hasn't thrown you off this forum. It certainly has its trolls. I have to deal with it all the time and I stay because I want to be a lifeline to those who are honest and straightforward and want to keep bees treatment free. There is no better way to learn how to do that than to ask someone who already does it. When I started, and started here, there was Dee Lusby. At the time, she was the only experienced treatment free beekeeper. Mention her name now and you'll see derision heaped upon her africanized bees. Never mind the fact that she was doing it before there were africanized bees in the US. Mention Housel Positioning and you'll get heaps of scorn, even though at the absolute very most and least, it might do absolutely nothing. Say something like "I haven't lost any hives to mites in X years" and you'll get piles of mockery even though these people have never seen your hives. Check the archives, I have had losses blamed on mites no matter the condition of the hive. Now, Dee is gone, there is Michael Bush, and me, and a couple others. If people want to know the straight dope, they'll use the PM system, and they do.

    But you can do it differently than the rabble. You can accept that people might see and do things differently than you see and do them. You can assume that people are telling you the truth about what they're seeing. You can be open to other ideas. And you can work to make this a better place for people looking to keep bees without treatments. Remember, there are many times more readers than there are commenters.

    You're gonna have a spectrum of people. Some are purely ideological, some will follow the facts wherever they lead. Some agree with almost anything, some will admit to nothing.

    Have fun.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  20. #300
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Originally Posted by rhaldridge:
    The article says 18 frames over two brood cycles. That's 9 frames per cycle, 3 frames per box. I'm a beginner, so can someone tell me why that's implausible in a three deep hive with large stores, and pollen coming in?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    It's not implausible. But I don't think you presented it that way before. I'm not sure I understand what 18 frames over two brood cycles means. 18 frames of capped brood? 18 frames of all stages?
    Mark, I didn't present it at all. It was a bit seized out of context by the guy who's fabricated a factfree theory regarding Tim Ives' practices. I didn't even know what he was talking about until I went back and looked at the article again. He presented it as if 18 frames of brood magically appeared prior to the first flow, which is absurd. Nothing even remotely like that was being claimed. I interpreted the article to mean that the queen laid 18 frames of brood over 2 brood cycles, which is pretty much exactly what it says. You yourself mentioned the usual ratio of brood frames to honey and pollen frames. If you'll notice, the claim of 9 frames of brood per brood cycle in a 3 deep setup (30 frames in all) comes pretty close to matching that ratio exactly. The point that was being made in the article was Tim's belief that a three deep brood nest produces 50 percent more bees per cycle than a two deep setup; it's about bee numbers. You can certainly argue with that belief, and I have no idea if it's correct. What it most certainly is not is a smoking gun that destroys Tim Ives' credibility, which is what is being claimed by a certain academic with no actual knowledge of the situation.

    Draw your own conclusions.

Page 15 of 29 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads