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  1. #241
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,468

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I apparently missed the claim of 18 frames of brood in a colony. I have seen hives with brood in 18 frames but I have never seen a single queen able to maintain egg laying in 18 full frames of brood, it would surely take a second queen or resources from another hive. But that issue aside I just don't get what mechanism allows greater brood production without a corresponding increase in mite populations. In my mind the ideal hive that would be able to control varroa of its own devices would have to be highly Hygenic (constantly reducing bee population) and have a shortened laying season.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  2. #242
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    jim:

    I think it's the MDA splitter method. One operation is used for honey production (honey towers). The other operation is for making nucs/splits for next years production. That's how you outbreed mites.

    Tim was being entertaiing. Fat bees, honey towers, beekeeper on a ladder, hugh honey production.

    Just because Randy is gullible (and I do know that he's fallen for 'stories' before in a big way), doesn't mean that we need to be. However, it's OK to laugh heartily at this one.

    WLC.

  3. #243
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    well heres my question, and it may not be stated well so bear with me, Why is 3 deeps and 10 supers better than single deeps and 3 supers? Its hard for me to do the math in my head. I would have split those down as soon as it was warm enough, and generated the same amount of honey out of the same woodenware..... so how does one system prove better than the other??? yes I would use 3 queens instead, but no ladders... so how do we really gauge productivity? I put 3 deeps toghter with no queen and 5 supers filled with sunflower honey in 2 weeks... but don't consider it super special...?? so if were going to gauge honey production, is lbs per hive really a good way???

  4. #244
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    It's all embelishment for a good story.

    Rest assured, the bees will get fatter, the hives will get taller, the ladder will get longer, and the honey production will increase.

    It's likely all real to some degree (except for the fat bees, which should have been the tipoff for what was really happening), and it's entertaining.

  5. #245
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Just because Randy is gullible (and I do know that he's fallen for 'stories' before in a big way), doesn't mean that we need to be. However, it's OK to laugh heartily at this one.

    WLC.
    I'm laughing heartily at someone else.

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/
    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-2/

    Citations... how the heck do they work?

    I guess I'll have to take Dr. Amdam more seriously than Anonymous Internet Guy. No offense meant.

  6. #246
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    None taken.

    The fat bees/vg explanation is an embelishment.

    All you need is 18 frames of capped brood.

    Really.

    I know more than enough about bee biology to say...

    that was entertaining.

  7. #247
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Since you're interested in the science...

    It's called caste plasticity.

    Honeybees can change caste as the need arises.

    Nurse bees can become foragers.

    For example, the foraging caste usually lasts about 8 days. But, if nurse bees change caste to forager at an earlier stage because there's no brood to care for, they can last as foragers for much longer than 8 days..

    Also, foragers can revert caste to store and cap honey.

    I do keep current with the literature.

    Can I help it if Randy isn't a degreed Biologist (I am), and can't follow some of the recent work being done on neuroplasticity in Honeybees?

    I just loved the recent paper by Gene Robinson.


  8. #248
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,662

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Here's an interesting piece that has more on his strategies. He has only a brief dearth, in August, if I'm understanding this article:

    http://www.indianahoney.org/2013/02/...-Corn-Belt.cfm

    An interesting bit I got from the piece is that Tim thinks a lot of beekeepers are not taking full advantage of early flows, because their hives are not strong enough early.
    one thing that caught my attention in the piece ray was this:

    "He [Tim] suggests that a minimum of three deeps is what is most natural for the bees."

    this seems to be at odds with the fact that when given a choice of sizes, swarms prefer to go into cavities about the size of a ten frame deep lang. (there was a study done, but i don't have the reference)

    the other thing i found remarkable was dean's description (in the post he linked above) of the contents of the three deeps at overwintering, mainly that the bottom deep is full of pollen.

    it made me wonder if those of you who use all mediums end up with the bottom box full of pollen.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #249
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    well heres my question, and it may not be stated well so bear with me, Why is 3 deeps and 10 supers better than single deeps and 3 supers? Its hard for me to do the math in my head. I would have split those down as soon as it was warm enough, and generated the same amount of honey out of the same woodenware..... so how does one system prove better than the other??? yes I would use 3 queens instead, but no ladders... so how do we really gauge productivity? I put 3 deeps toghter with no queen and 5 supers filled with sunflower honey in 2 weeks... but don't consider it super special...?? so if were going to gauge honey production, is lbs per hive really a good way???
    Bear in mind that I'm a beginner, and may not have this right, but as I understand it, the three deep system Tim is using is a strategy for wintering a strong colony and getting an early buildup. The way it was explained to me is that the three deeps more nearly approximate the conditions in a bee tree-- in that there is plenty of room for stores above and below the brood nest-- honey above and pollen below. Evidently, in this system it's important for the colony to be very strong, with plenty of new bees going into winter, so that they will make a strong cluster all winter and start to brood up very early. If you look at that video of his hives in early March, it's a pretty impressive amount of bees for that early in the season in north Indiana.

    His view is that many beekeepers miss out on early nectar sources because their foragers are not yet numerous enough. He gets a lot of honey from deadnettle and henbit in the corn fields before they are planted.

  10. #250
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Can I help it if Randy isn't a degreed Biologist (I am), and can't follow some of the recent work being done on neuroplasticity in Honeybees?
    So who are you? I'd like to look at your publications.

    If you prefer anonymity, I'm still going to have to believe Dr. Amdam.

    Amdam, GV, K Norberg, A Hagen, SW Omholt (2003) Social exploitation of vitellogenin. PNAS 100(4): 1799-1802.

    Amdam, GV, et al. (2004a) Hormonal control of the yolk precursor vitellogenin regulates immune function and longevity in honeybees. Exp Gerontol.39(5):767-73.

    Amdam, GV, K Hartfelder, K Norberg, A Hagen, SW Omholt (2004b) Altered Physiology in Worker Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Infested with the Mite Varroa destructor (Acari: Varroidae): A Factor in Colony Loss During Overwintering? Journal of Economic Entomology 97(3): 741-747.

    Amdam GV, et al. (2005) ; Social reversal of immunosenescence in honey bee workers Experimental Gerontology 40(12): 939-947

    Amdam, GV, K Norberg, SW Ohmolt (2005b) Higher vitellogenin concentrations in honey bee workers may be an adaptation to life in temperate climates. Insects Sociaux 52(4)

    Hey, check out that fourth cite.

  11. #251
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    May 2009
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    3,080

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    He gets a lot of honey from deadnettle and henbit in the corn fields before they are planted.
    At least in this area... henbit is an unlikely candidate to make any honey off of....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  12. #252
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    No.

    You should believe The Navigator. Gene Robinson. He charted the Honeybee Methylome.

    It's not about fat bees or vg.

    It's about changes in DNA methylation and neroplasticity in the bee brain. That's how they change castes.

    Unfortunately, the levels of vitellogenin are controlled by changes in the Honeybe brain, not the other way around. It's a completely different signaling pathway.

    Sorry. Those papers don't apply to how Honeybees change their caste.

    Fat bees aren't required, only capped brood and Honeybee neuroplasticity.
    Last edited by WLC; 05-06-2013 at 06:55 PM.

  13. #253
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    So who are you?
    Not gonna happen. He's been draggin' that bait for years. All we know is that he is most definitely NOT William Lane Craig.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  14. #254
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    We all know who Gene Robinson is. Right?

    More science and less pseudoscience please.

    It's capped brood and Honeybee neuroplasticity.

    Some of you are buying into a story that really isn't about treatment free beekeeping.

    Unless, of course, you explore Mel's MDA splitter method for chemical free beekeeping.

    I would definitely call it a good first, or second (maybe third) step.

  15. #255
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,753

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    It blows my mind that anyone would spend so much time assuming the details of a beekeepers system...and sharing them. All of the statements and assumptions to this point in the post are not true, at least based on the talk by Tim that I attended.
    Why would you bother to share so many ignorant assumptions? What's the point?


    There are numerous ways to raise queens and split colonies...none of them "require" chemicals per se. ... I'd bet that the vast majority of folks using "the MDA splitter method" or "on the spot queen rearing" are also using mite treatments.

    deknow
    Dean,
    Does Tim Ives run all of his hives treatment free as far as you know? Just wanting to pin something down.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  16. #256
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    No.
    Allrighty then.

    I can't figure out why you think this is about caste-changing. That's Huber-level info. You're a couple centuries too late to astonish anyone with the breadth of your knowledge, and I say that as an ignorant newbee.

    I've corresponded with Tim Ives. You haven't. My firsthand knowledge of what he is actually saying about his methods is more interesting and valuable to me than your fact-free speculation, which I happen to know is completely wrong.

    Sorry.

  17. #257
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Dean,
    Does Tim Ives run all of his hives treatment free as far as you know? Just wanting to pin something down.
    Mark, he has never treated. He's been keeping bees since 2002. Until 2006 he lost a lot of hives, and then he started splitting from feral swarms. This has been the basis of his increase since.

  18. #258
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim Ives is an MDA disciple.

    That's the story.

    You know: there are Crowder, Bush, Stiglitz, Palmer, and other disciples around here.

    You can recognize them by what they're doing with their bees.

    Mel does the tower in chemical free beekeeping.

    The Fat Bee thing is funny. But it's not relevant.

    Of course, your free to believe a guy who has fat bees, in a tower hive, climbs on a ladder, and gets huge amounts of honey.

    But, I'm not going to bite on that bait.

  19. #259
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,644

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    one thing that caught my attention in the piece ray was this:

    "He [Tim] suggests that a minimum of three deeps is what is most natural for the bees."

    this seems to be at odds with the fact that when given a choice of sizes, swarms prefer to go into cavities about the size of a ten frame deep lang. (there was a study done, but i don't have the reference)
    Dr seeley....



    R haldridge, I understand the thought process, but when you look at the production per box its no better than other methods... so why do we get all excited at the numbers..?? In this post alone they have been exurated and blown up to mythical portions, and yet his yeilds compared to brood chambers are no more impressive that say Ron Housholders who runs single deeps and a lot of supers. agreed his treatment free is great. but I see nothing mythical here, just a lot of box stacking...

  20. #260
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,753

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    At least in this area... henbit is an unlikely candidate to make any honey off of....
    Yeah, I always thought that henbit was a pollen producer, not a nectar producer. But I'm not a Botanist, so what do I know?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


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