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  1. #81
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    Good point Ray. But the survey also reveals a weakness in these types of surveys. It could be, that people who are inclined to do drone brood removal for mite control, were less concerned about the hives that were obviously booming, but did it more on hives they felt were under mite pressure. And these hives could be more likely to end up dead, drone removal, or not.

    Also, I suspect that the numbers involved may not have been big enough to give a low margin of error.

    None the less, not criticising the survey in any way, the more people take part in it, the more useful it is.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
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    479

    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    Mites prefer drone brood over worker brood by a factor of 8.3 or maybe 11.6

    Possible reasons for drone cell preference could be that drone pupae and worker pupae smell differently or the fact that the mites invade drone cells earlier than worker cells.

    There is an obvious reason why mites do better in drone cells as the cells are capped for longer and they can produce more viable offspring. 2-3 as opposed to 1 or 2 from a worker cell. The first egg a mite lays produces a male and subsequent eggs laid at 30 hour intervals produce females.

  3. #83
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    Thanks Jonathan. And I don't see anything in those studies about a natural variation in preferences between mites. Kind of lends support to what I've been saying, which is, that none has been demonstrated.

    Hope nobody thinks I've been saying mites don't prefer drone brood.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 04-30-2013 at 05:10 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,742

    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    >I saw a quote here that went something like, we should accomplish more and more by doing less and less until finally we can do everything by doing nothing. Personally I think that's a load of gobbledegook.

    From one of the great books of wisdom of all time, the Tao Te Ching, studied and esteemed by billions (literally) of people...

    "The master accomplishes more and more by doing less and less until finally he accomplishes everything by doing nothing." --Laozi, Tao Te Ching

    This, of course is impossible, but it is a laudable goal. The point is that when we are in the flow of reality and using that flow to our advantage things are effortless compared to fighting that flow and trying to make reality be something other than what it is.

    While billions appreciate the writings of Laozi, I doubt you can find that many who think his writings are "a load of gobbledegook."

    As far as preferences, obviously when there are drone larvae in the hive, some mites are choosing them, and some are choosing workers. I prefer to propagate the ones that prefer drones...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #85
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,644

    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    Well I certianly didn't mean to change the topic with the drone trapping comment, just to point it out, some do it. and it is dificult to do in a foundationless.

    But where is the data that shows its selective breeding of mites? and this it doesn't help? I fully realize that its not a total solution, but who says it does not delay things enough to help?? And I really doubt that Mites are geneticly programed to pick one over the other. Any more than starlings are programed to nest in my garage rather than in a tree. They are oportunist...... Lots of really interesting arguments, but no way to scientificly prove anything.

    I don't think Drone trapping is a soulution, any more than powdered sugar, but that doesn't mean its not helpful in delaying the population boom of the mites. Its not my treatment method, but I am not going to make up arguments against it.
    Now back to the OP
    which way are you going to go??

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Ka'u Hawaii
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    169

    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    This argument is a little 'over the top', at least as far as I'm concerned.
    I have stated that my 'natural cell' bees will raise multiple frames of drone brood, and yes, this is mostly done in the spring and early summer before the big 'flow' that we all hope to have.
    I personally have found it very easy to take some drones and break them apart. This is an easy way for me to see if there are a lot of mites. For this I have been criticized. And if I find what appears to be large numbers of mites in the drone comb, I will tear out as much as I can. There is no way that I, or anyone else, remove all of the drone comb; however, I feel that this is a good action given the presence of many mites, and the fact that it is warm season and the honey is flowing.
    I don't see why this is a problem. And in 2011 when I first discovered mites in my bees, and 2012, I had a lot of losses until I stopped doing 'nothing'. And yes, I have yet to see a mite on one of my bees in spite of frequent inspections.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Ka'u Hawaii
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    169

    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    I read and appreciated the Tao many years ago.
    The theme, as I recall, is 'perseverance furthers'.
    I consider this to be a key to a successful life.

  8. #88
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    "The master accomplishes more and more by doing less and less until finally he accomplishes everything by doing nothing." --Laozi, Tao Te Ching ...
    Luckily my bees have not read the book, and do not subscribe to the same principle.

    I haven't read the book either, so am not commenting on the entire book I have no idea what's in it. My former comments were just directed to the quoted statement, so no disrespect to the book in general. Hope that smooth's things over.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #89
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    Apr 2012
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    Ka'u Hawaii
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    169

    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    No probllems here, Oldtimer. I suggest you read the book. It's small and an easy read.
    I think that you will like it.

  10. #90
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    I'm a little too real world, I suspect.

    However, I do understand ( I think ), the thrust of the quote, it's about efficiency, and that I'll agree with.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Vernonia Or
    Posts
    88

    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Yes it has been shown in some studies that mites prefer drone cells to worker cells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Yes, in a feral hive it will be likely there will be a higher % of infestation in the drone larvae than the worker larvae. But the debate here is that some mites would do this more than other mites, and could therefore be selected out of the other mites for the trait. I'm saying that this has never been shown to be the case.
    Whether the conclusion you suggest is that all mites prefer a drone cell environment or that most prefer drone cells it appears that the "trait" is already established. I'd think a squeeze would be put on the mites by reducing that preferred environment or at least making it uncomfortable.

  12. #92
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: My experiment with foundationless

    Yes, and that has been demonstrated in the field.

    So in this particular case, the statistics provided to the national bee survey do not reflect what actually happens, so presumably sample size was too small to give good margin of error, or, other factors were involved that were not recorded in the survey.

    Other figures provided in the survey were likely pretty useful, and the more people that do the survey, the better.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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