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My experiment with foundationless

17K views 91 replies 28 participants last post by  Oldtimer 
#1 ·
Last Saturday, I decided to test the claim that bees will draw out foundationless frames faster than foundation frames. I really didn't know what I was doing, so I just heated some wax and painted two coats on the top bar of two plain old medium frames.

Here are the four day results:

Bee Honeybee Beehive Insect Membrane-winged insect


Bee Honeybee Insect Beehive Membrane-winged insect


Both of these are of the same frame. The other frame is being drawn out very nicely as well...not quite like this, but still strong.

These bees were a swarm I got from a town over. They were hived 2 weeks ago and are beasts.

Even caught a glimpse of her majesty:

Bee Insect Honeybee Beehive Honeycomb


I added another medium above them. In that I placed 5 foundationless frames with triangular strips for guides. Also, staggered between these I put 5 frames with foundation.

They also have a deep box on the bottom. They don't like it as much as the medium. I might remove it soon. I'm switching to all mediums anyway.
 
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#2 ·
It sure is incredible. Thanks for the pics. I am going to give this a try, after I get some experience under my belt. I purchased frames with the rite-cell foundation from mannlake. I'm going to see how that goes, but am really liking the idea of comb honey and allowing the bees to go more natural. I just don't think I want to take on all of the wiring that seemed to be par for the course. But what you have here is wireless, right? No wires, no pins? Sorry, still learning :)
 
#7 ·
@Acebird, I have gone with all mediums. Definitely going to give this a try!
@Mike Gillmore, the fishing line does sound helpful... but I am, admittedly, just too darn lazy for the extra step! I suppose that the biggest risk comes into play during the dog days of summer when the wax is most soft.
 
#8 ·
Yes, in the heat of the summer you should use caution when handling the frames. If the comb is not attached well on the sides and bottom, and the summer heat has the wax softened up, don't hold the frame parallel to the ground when inspecting or the whole comb could break off and fall right out of the frame. I learned this the hard way. The frame must be held perpendicular to the ground at all times.
 
#22 ·
Actually, no.

Wire certainly does add some strength to seasoned comb, but the force of honey laden fresh comb vs. the small surface area of wire might assist a bit in handling...but against the forces of extraction? Think of how easy it is to cut through fresh comb with some thin wire or fishing line.

The primary reason people use wire (and the initial reason for its use) is to support the foundation from sagging under the heat/weight of the bees clustered on it. Once the comb is drawn there is good structural stiffness in the comb...but before drawing, not so much.

First came the extractor (before foundation), and no one seemed to feel the need to wire the frames. Only with the invention and adoption of foundation were wires found necessary.

For unwired, foundationless frames, don't "hold" the frame....rest the frame ears on your index fingers and gravity will keep things lined up safely.

deknow
 
#10 ·
I've really enjoyed my foundationless hives so far. Of course, I've been lucky and my bees have drawn beautiful comb.

I have long hives that are a bit more than the volume of 3 deeps. A nuc I installed a little over a month ago has expanded to 14 frames, though all aren't completely filled out yet.

This frame was empty a couple weeks before this picture was taken:

Bee Beehive Honeycomb Food Membrane-winged insect


Here's some comb several days old:

Honeycomb Bee Beehive Honeybee Insect


You can see the monolfilament fishing line I ran through the middle holes of the deep frame.
 
#11 ·
In one of the pics it appears there is fishing line in an X pattern through the frame.
Quite a set of eyes you have, Mike. Yes, this frame is wired. Like I said, I really don't have any experience with this and don't know what to expect as far as extraction goes. My extractor has a heavy screen that the frames press up against when it's spinning. I'm hoping that will prevent blowout, I dunno. The other foundationless frames in this box are not wired. I'll just have to experiment to see.

Acebird, you say you don't need wire for mediums. Do you mean that they will hold up during extraction or just inspection?
 
#20 ·
Except for the time it takes during assembly, just wondering if there is one good reason to NOT use wire?[/QUOTE]

Well, in the past I wired thousands of frames. This was a task task that I never enjoyed.

So I have tried not wiring and no foundation for the last 3 years. It sure is a lot easier prep; however, I've found that the bees raise huge numbers of drones in foundationless frames. Also I need to keep working the new frames in between combs already built to prevent them from 'doing their own thing', shall we say.

For me the more frequent inspections weren't too bad due to the fact that I have also been doing battle against mites AND the d@$!##d hive beetles.

FWIW, I think the index fingers have gotten bigger as I have often used them to smash the beetles that I have encountered on the top bars and hive cover.

Also, many combs get destroyed when I extract. Often the combs just fall out of the frames when turned sideways. The honey is there and needs to be harvested; however, many of them are not attached at the sides and bottom and therein lies the problem with extracting foundationless combs.

I have also leanred that honey squeezed from the combs is superior in quality to extracted honey. I am quite sure that this is the case.
 
#24 ·
When I saw Sam Comfort in February, he told me about a beekeeper he is working with in Hawaii.

Her method of extracting foundationless combs is to only uncap one side first, spin ALL the honey out of that side, then uncap the other side.

The capped cells provide some stiffness to the comb (parallel to the midrib) while extracting out the first half of the honey. I haven't tried this yet, but I never would have thought of it on my own. Sometimes you have to think outside the cell.

deknow
 
#25 ·
I'm putting bobby-pins threw the holes on the sides of the frames for reinforcement. If the doesn't work my next step is to add a horizontal bar across the center of my medium frames. This will take more time because I will need to groove the center of both side bars. Then I plan to use a spit bottom bar with a strip of cell-rite to make a centering strip for the top,and bottom of the center horizonal bar on these frames. Most of the time I find that my new ideals have already been thought of by someone before.
 
#26 ·
If the doesn't work my next step is to add a horizontal bar across the center of my medium frames.
If I wanted to reinforce comb, this is what I would do.

This will take more time because I will need to groove the center of both side bars.
I think it would be less work (and more useful) to make a jig that positions a horizontal bar properly. You would also have pretty good centering if you used the wire holes in the side bars.

Then I plan to use a spit bottom bar with a strip of cell-rite to make a centering strip for the top,and bottom of the center horizonal bar on these frames.
I've never put a comb guide on the bottom bar, but I know some do. As for the comb guide (centering strip), I find popsicle sticks work so well that I can't imagine why anyone would use plastic or wax foundation starter strips.

deknow
 
#27 ·
Some of what's been said here reinforces my belief that monofilament is a better way to reinforce comb than wire, if you're not using foundation. Its larger diameter should provide more resistance to cutting during extraction. Also, it's a lot quicker and easier to install than wire. You can get it banjo tight with just your hands and a knot.

Old drawings of Langstroth frames show triangular comb guides on all 4 sides, and I imagine this makes for stronger combs, as the bees have much more attachment surface to work with. But I hope that isn't necessary. It doesn't seem to be, as far as straight comb is concerned, so far.
 
#29 ·
>Except for the time it takes during assembly, just wondering if there is one good reason to NOT use wire?

I don't like wire in my cut comb, and I never know if I'm going to have that nice new soft white comb that is great comb honey and hard to extract. Also I like to be able to cut queen cells out without working around wires. I prefer not to use wire. Then, of course, it's work...
 
#30 ·
plus a spool on 30# mono is a lot cheaper than wire as well. I think it works so well because the bees can't see it, unlike rubber bands which they will chew out. Went through 100 frames on one spool of mono this week. Plus, you never know what is in wire or any metal these days.
 
#32 ·
Like everything in beekeeping, foundationless frames will interest you depending on your basic assumptions.

My assumption was that acaricide residue in foundation is a potential problem. It may not be a large problem, but I'm a person who believes that the small things add up. When I discovered that it was possible to keep bees without foundation, I decided to give it a try. So far I like it a lot, though I'd probably have a different reaction if my bees had been determined to build wild comb.

It's cheaper.

It's less time consuming.

The bees like building their own comb, it would seem.

Once comb has been through a couple brood cycles, it should be plenty strong enough for extracting. Smalltimers have the time to manipulate their hives to rotate these combs into honey storage.

It's very interesting to observe what the bees build when left to their own device. This is possibly fanciful, but I suspect this might be a way that bees could communicate with the beekeeper, if the beekeeper has enough experience reading the bees' intent from the comb they build. Every good beekeeper I've talked to has stressed the importance of close observation, and this is another channel for that.

It's possible to regress bees, given patience, just by letting them build their own comb and cycling it out.

I don't have an extractor, so the extractability of foundationless comb is a non-issue for me. An advantage of crush and strain honey processing is that you have more beeswax for candles and salves, if you like to experiment with that sort of thing (my wife does.)

There's some evidence that keeping bees busy making wax can suppress the impulse to swarm.

Some non-grafting queen breeding processes appear to work better with fresh foundationless comb.

I'm sure there are also many disadvantages, but I haven't seen them yet. That said, I'm a hobbyist. No doubt I would have a completely different view if I had 500 hives.
 
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