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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Destin, FL
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I am, but I've seen a hundred photos of DWV (mostly after I saw these bees and got panicky.) These were definitely DWV, with the wings shriveled and crumpled. It's a very distinctive look, and I examined these bees under a scope.



    Most hives have mites, so probably most hives have DWV. Not all will eventually collapse, according to my research.

    It's my impression, from the research I've done, that numerous DWV bees is often a sign of a hive nearing collapse from a mite overload, rather than a disease like the foulbroods that will get out of hand if ignored. Obviously that didn't happen in my case, at least not yet. According to Michael Bush, if I remember accurately, finding a bee or two with DWV is not something to get too excited about. The theory I find most plausible is that this is a opportunistic virus that primarily affects bees weakened by mites or other stressors.

    Of course, I am a newbee, so I could be completely wrong. But it doesn't matter, because I'm not going to treat for mites. So we'll see. There has been no more DWV as far as I can tell, and the hive is booming. If it were an infection that inevitably kills a hive, the hive would not be thriving, or so it seems to me.
    I agree.. The hives I found the bee with a deformed wing is definitely booming. Its thriving for sure! I sent you a message.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,186

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Waites View Post
    I agree.. The hives I found the bee with a deformed wing is definitely booming. Its thriving for sure! I sent you a message.
    It's the fall and winter when the pop starts to dwindle that the mites get you......
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    374

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    I have never tested for mites, never treated for mites, and never lost a hive to mites. I don't even think about them.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Wausau, WI, USA
    Posts
    212

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    See no evil
    Speak no evil
    Hear no evil

    That doesn't mean they are not there

    Wisnewbee
    Honey Luv Farm

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisnewbee View Post
    See no evil
    Speak no evil
    Hear no evil

    That doesn't mean they are not there

    Wisnewbee
    Honey Luv Farm
    What do you think it means that I saw a couple bees with DWV right after I installed the nuc, and none since? I spend a lot of time just watching my hives with binoculars, and I go through each of them frame by frame on a weekly basis, since I'm trying to learn all I can. When I notice a corpse being hauled out, I try to get it once it's been dropped, and then I scope it. Trying to learn.

    Thinking about this, I wonder if those DWV bees were even from my hive. The nuc I got was one that the beekeeper was using as a cell builder in early spring, and he poured a lot of extra bees into it before he let them raise the queen I got. She's turned out to be a great queen, so that part is good.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Wausau, WI, USA
    Posts
    212

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    What do you think it means that I saw a couple bees with DWV right after I installed the nuc, and none since?
    It means that DWV is present in the hive. No surprise, as it's present in the majority of hives. Does it really matter where it came from? DWV gets to be trouble when coupled with something else such as Varroa mites. Varroa punture the cuticle of the bee, making an entry point into the bee. A reduced Varroa mite load (vector) on a colony significantly reduces the effects of other diseases and pests (pathogens) Varroa mites compromise the immune system of the bee. That means the bees get sick easier and when they do, it's worse.

    Best thing for your bees is to monitor your mite load, treat only when needed, and rotate your treatment methods. This is to reduce resistance buildup. I can't say enough about the importance of nutrition on health either. Well fed, healthy bees can fight off a pathogen much better then a weaken bee.

    Wisnewbee
    Honey Luv Farm

  7. #67
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,186

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    What do you think it means that I saw a couple bees with DWV right after I installed the nuc, and none since? I spend a lot of time just watching my hives with binoculars, and I go through each of them frame by frame on a weekly basis, since I'm trying to learn all I can.
    This time of year, there are a large number of bees in the hive and growing everyday. This large number of bees share the mite load. When the fall rolls around, the population of the hive will slowly diminish, each dead bee leaving behind it's mites. By late fall the mite load will be significant. If your mites are the kind that carry virulent viruses (redundant?) - and DWV is a pretty good indicator of that - you will notice things going very wrong....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Wausau, WI, USA
    Posts
    212

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    you will notice things going very wrong....
    And they can go wrong very quickly too. In a matter of 3-4 weeks you can have a hive that looks to be doing great, to a handfull of bees. Typically right after the honey comes off. This happened to a lot of people last fall. Hobbiest, Sideliner, and Commercial guys alike. Hit us hard too, but we were able to make up our loses. We are testing and treating much differently this year, and we're changing up our genetics to fight Varroa too. We will not let Varroa numbers get above 2 1/2% (adjusted for mites under the cap)this year.

    Wisnewbee
    Honey Luv Farm

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Calhoun Co, Texas, USA
    Posts
    1,310

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    To my line of thinking, the last 2 posts make a GREAT argument for a fall brood break, and some selective breeding for genetically varroa resistant bees (such as, though not necessarily, VSH or Minn. Hygienic). Those 2 options, used together, and maybe supplemented with some "wives tale remedies" as they were called earlier in this post (you know, using things that have worked in nature for thousands of years, rather than man-made treatments that generally seem to fail after only a few decades of use) during the parts of the year when the honey flow is on, and a brood break would harm production, should keep your mite load low enough to make other things (such as AFB and SHB) be much more "pressing" issues for you to monitor for

  10. #70
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,186

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by robherc View Post
    To my line of thinking, the last 2 posts make a GREAT argument for a fall brood break, and some selective breeding for genetically varroa resistant bees
    MAQS is best used in the Fall. It will dump the phoretic mites and cause a brood break long enough to kill the incubating mites. But you do need to follow directions. Formic Acid seems pretty organic to me.... but then I am no purist.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,544

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    .... the population of the hive will slowly diminish, each dead bee leaving behind it's mites. By late fall the mite load will be significant...
    In my understanding, bees, who about to die (natural cause or disease) have a tendency to leave the beehive and die away from home. It is natural protection from spread of disease, infestation etc.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,544

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    ... Formic Acid seems pretty organic to me.... but then I am no purist.
    Yes, formic acid is organic acid, HCl - is inorganic acid...
    Last edited by cerezha; 04-29-2013 at 05:40 PM.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Wausau, WI, USA
    Posts
    212

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by robherc View Post
    To my line of thinking, the last 2 posts make a GREAT argument for a fall brood break, and some selective breeding for genetically varroa resistant bees (such as, though not necessarily, VSH or Minn. Hygienic). Those 2 options, used together, and maybe supplemented with some "wives tale remedies" as they were called earlier in this post (you know, using things that have worked in nature for thousands of years, rather than man-made treatments that generally seem to fail after only a few decades of use) during the parts of the year when the honey flow is on, and a brood break would harm production, should keep your mite load low enough to make other things (such as AFB and SHB) be much more "pressing" issues for you to monitor for
    Rob, I agree that a brood break would be a good thing. Hygenic bees are a good step, and 1 that I am personally doing this year. However the OP was about what to do now. If he waitsuntil fall to do a brood break, the damage will most likely be too severe to survive. I've used MAQS before and just find them too hard on brood and queens. While Hopguard is only a flash treatment good on phoretic mites, couple a Hopguard treatment timed with a break in brood, timed so the Hopguard is on during the 2 or 3 days of no open brood and you have a great method for knocking the snot out of the mites. Remember that Hopguard is only active while it's moist, so 3 days maybe. I think Beta-Acids have a lot of potential.

    Pull the queen a week before your flow. Just as the flow starts put her back in. There is no open brood to take care of so additional bees can forage. As bees emerge they can take care of the larvae beginning to mature. week, give or take a day, apply the Hopguard. There should be no capped brood. Your honey crop may be bigger by doing a brood break like this.

    The commercial guy who taught me told me they would pull and bank the queens for 2 weeks just before the flow. By having no open brood, they make more honey.

    Wisnewbee
    Honey Luv Farm
    Last edited by Wisnewbee; 04-29-2013 at 05:12 PM.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Wausau, WI, USA
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    212

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Yes, formic acid is organic acid, HCl - is inorganic acid...
    I think he was talking about organic like in farming. No synthetics. I don't think he was talking about organic as in chemistry. Easy to confuse.

    Wisnewbee
    Honey Luv Farm

  15. #75
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,186

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisnewbee View Post
    I think he was talking about organic like in farming.

    Wisnewbee
    Honey Luv Farm
    Correct....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    I think he was talking about organic like in farming.
    Wisnewbee
    Honey Luv Farm
    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Correct....
    Well, than it is "inorganic"
    Formic acid from chemical point of view is a horrible stuff. If ants use it, it just indicates how smart they are - they use a powerful weapon...but in tiny amounts and it still hurts!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Panama City, Florida, USA
    Posts
    595

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    Here is what will happen. if the hive is not treated at all. It will continue in strength through the flow as the number of eggs laid verses the percentage of emerging DWV bees is still small. The bee population built rapidly in spring as normal and the varroa population is lagging behind as the cycle always does. After the flows are over and the we enter a time in summer of reduced forage, higher temps, the queen will slow down so the bee population will level off and begin to decline. At the same time since brood rearing has been in high gear, the varroa population has been growing dramatically So just as the bee population is starting to decrease, the varroa population is increasing. This means that a dramatically higher percentage of brood is infested by varroa and DWV. If left untreated the hive will decline by late August to a point that the SHB will overrun and effectively kill the hive. The best option is to treat after the flow with whichever treatment you prefer. If you treat with MAQS now, you may kill the queen and will definitely stop her laying and kill brood. I would wait until the flow is done and either use Amitraz, which is now approved for use in Florida or Apiguard (Thyme Oil). I have treated with MAQS and still have some in my garage which I need to dispose of, decided it was to hard on the bees. But the ones that survived, thrived. I personally believe the best option is Apiguard. I have never used amitraz but have heard good reports on its use. But for me the chance of trace amounts of the chemical left behind leaves me staying with Apiguard.

    In any event, you need to treat immediately after the flows are over to allow adequate time to rebound before the queen really slows down in the fall. (although in our area, that slow down is not a given until into late November.
    We do not have a natural brood break due to the climatic conditions of our area (lower/coastal NW FLorida). A brood break in late July or August is a killer due to diminishing bee populations leaving the hive open to SHB overrun.

    Good Luck.

    jeb

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Phoenixville, PA
    Posts
    579

    Default Re: Did a mite count, got 8-9 in 1 cup of bees! HELP!

    An 8 count from a cup of bees - you're fine. I doubt you will find a colony in your area with less.

    As another said, consider treating after the harvest.

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