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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    trance, here is oliver's latest paper on colony losses in general including a review on what is know about neonics as it relates to bees:

    http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5fd2b1a...ng2013_opt.pdf

    i find oliver's objectivity refreshing. some have questioned his objectivity as being suspect since he receives research dollars from big companies. here's how he responds to that (quoted with permission):

    "I've personally wrestled with this aspect of publicity of proprietary data.

    In the case of Bayer Cropscience, Bayer set up a dedicated website for the members of the original Bayer-Beekeeper Dialog Group set up by Jerry Bromenshenk and David Fischer of Bayer. The only limitation placed upon us what that we couldn't copy and forward the actual data to their competitors, who could have then used that data to register competing products. I commend Bayer on their openness. I have yet to find Bayer to withhold any information that I have ever requested, even when such information may appear to involve potential negative aspects of their products.

    I recently asked the manufacturer of Dimilin insecticide to review their proprietary data, and was granted a conference call a few days ago with their lead scientists in Europe. The plan is for me to sign an NDA and be given access to that data, so that I can summarize the results for the benefit of the beekeeping community (I will work in conjunction with Drs Eric Mussen and Reed Johnson).

    Trickier is when I get paid to run a field trial for a company with a product to sell to beekeepers. My agreement with Beeologics was that I would be free to publish the results of the trials, good, bad, or indifferent--which I have or are in the process of. Luckily for them, the product was clearly effective!

    When Beeologics was acquired by Monsanto, I only agreed to continue if they agreed in writing to give me access to the data from the control group--again potentially to the great benefit of the bee scientific community.

    I've also run trials for products in development. In this case, I feel that the data can remain proprietary, since the product is not on the market. Trust me, if it later came to market and I knew something negative about it, I would then run my own independent trial, funded by donations to my website, to bring that fact to the beekeeping community's attention!

    The situation is different for products on the market. I do not want to be put into the position of finding that a product is mere snake oil (or harmful to colonies) and not be able to say so! I am currently in negotiation with a company to run an expensive year-long trial of their product, which is already on the market. We are currently working out whether they will accept my condition of freedom to publish the results should they be negative.

    The beauty of my position is that I don't care about the money, since I make more from the hives if I don't engage them in trials. Running a proper field trial is a real pain, and finding time for data collection this week when my other hives cry for attention has forced us to work long hours six or seven days a week--who looks forward to weighing and grading
    150 hives in a trial when the rest of your colonies are about to swarm!

    So no manufacturer has any leverage over me, since I have no financial interest. The only reason that I run field trials is for the benefit of beekeepers who trust in my to give them accurate information. I take that trust very seriously."

    he has earned my trust, and i value the contribution he has made to beekeeping.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #22
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    Mar 2013
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    SqPeg. Thanks. That's what I started reading just a bit ago thanks to Orthoman and you for that link. I'm a bit skeptical to be honest but that is my nature. I guess I am frustrated about things I have no control over to a point. I have started a garden, early stages... I can't control everything but I can control some things. If I could raise my own cows and chickens I would but mostly for the fun of doing so.
    Last edited by trance; 04-20-2013 at 01:06 PM.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    understood trance, i think a lot of us feel the same way.

    i'm not a very politcal person and i don't have any agendas. i would like to think i have an open mind on this issue and try to consider the facts as they are known for now.

    i do get a little perturbed when i read comments here about neonics being responsible for this and that, and i have pretty much pulled myself out of the discussion.

    i hope i don't sound arrogant when i say that i think the petition for a ban seems kinda foolish.

    i commend you for asking good questions and searching for the answers.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Nice post SP. Randy's paper is certainly worth a read and is pretty much spot on with my thinking as well. I well remember the foliar spraying that went on years ago and regularly decimated our bees particularly on alfalfa seed and sunflowers. It's easy to just take a stand against poisons in general. To do it, though, without considering the economic problems that insects cause and how best to deal with them is simply to ignore the complexity of the situation. We run well over 100 locations in areas that have seen dramatic increases in corn and soybean plantings and have not seen any corresponding degradation in bee health. If neonics are actually causing some bee health problems then in my mind they are of secondary significance and far behind the most obvious and prominent issues of loss of forage, varroa, viruses, fungicides and the many other pesticides still in use particularly on sunflowers. Though I dont question the motives of beekeepers who are quite passionate in their beliefs I really believe that the beekeeper has become a logical and believable face to be employed at the forefront of a much larger ongoing battle that has raged for quite some time between environmental movements and large agribusinesses such as Monsanto and Bayer.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    BlueDiamond please post pictures of you working your hives or actually hives that you own so we can at least make sure your a beekeeper
    Think about it....Buy American

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by D Coates View Post
    What are they actually going to ban and why (actual scientifically based repeatable findings not inuendos and feelings)? The petition says nothing of this. Without knowing this, this merely means over 2.5 million are willing to be part of a lynch mob. I have no interest in being part of that.
    Someone with a brian this day and age, good man!

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    God gave man emotions but wants us to use clear thinking and logic. Remember that and remember that honey bees have no interest in corn and most soybeans. So ask yourself how does that bother our bees? I would however be ok with banning it on certain crops. If we ban it on corn and soybeans everyone will pay for it.

    Just like if these idiots in washington put the new tax on sugar. Its going to hurt us all. Please stop looking at yourself and think big picture. Please use your heads and take your emotion out of it.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Can we start a petition to withdraw the petition?

    Only 2.5 million in that MoB,,, bet half are Obama twitter followers (read fakes)
    I'll sign your petition to withdraw the other gladly
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    BlueDiamond please post pictures of you working your hives or actually hives that you own so we can at least make sure your a beekeeper
    what difference does it make if they have hives or not? I come here for information, they have a side to present.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    It's definitely a confusing battle. I honestly must have read everything bad. The only good I ever read was from the Horses mouth that I never believe just for the simple fact no company is going to slam themselves. Everyones comments has opened my eyes a bit. I'm still not a fan of things that are meant to kill in our food or the impact it has on the environment (some better than others). As I said, it's sort of like an awaking and refreshing that other people (Bee keepers at that) have a different view of some of these products. That doesn't mean I have changed sides just like that but it has opened the door for me to read and study these newer products a bit more.

    Having said that, I'm stepping away from this conversation.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    what difference does it make if they have hives or not? I come here for information, they have a side to present.
    Which side is that WB ... a one sided view and a one sided view only. It is one thing to have a beekeeper express his experience with a for or against opinion on what seems to be a divided view on pesticides here on a beekeepers forum. Bluediamond doesn't post views he likes to tear down peoples statements against beekeepers dislike for pesticides. Maybe this should just become a pesticide forum for non beekeepers.

    There are plenty of well informed beekeepers here both pro and con that have provided many threads to get a reasonable view of both sides not just one side.
    Think about it....Buy American

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Bluediamond doesn't post views he likes to tear down peoples statements against beekeepers dislike for pesticides. Maybe this should just become a pesticide forum for non beekeepers.
    I am a beekeeper, and I appreciate reading BlueDiamond's comments. I have a "dislike for pesticides" particularly when those pesticides are broad spectrum pesticides being used inappropriately. There are pleny of appropriate uses for pesticides, and we would be significantly worse off without them. Not all of BlueDiamond's posts are pesticide related. Here is a thread regarding bees in big box store garden centers, including some videos contributed by BlueDiamond, made at his/her local Home Depot store:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...garden-centers


    Without pesticides even once crops have been harvested there would be significant spoilage due to pests in food storage facilities such as grain elevators. I prefer to have as little rat poop in my food as possible!

    I even used some glyphosate (generic Roundup) in spot treatments (1 gallon handpump sprayer) on my gravel driveway the other day. Wet weeds coming thru the gravel make it slippery to drive up the hill.




    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 04-20-2013 at 12:52 PM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Back in the day... before the advent of systemic pesticides the beekeeper never knew for sure what was going to happen, with farmers running up and down the fields spraying all kind of pesticides on all kind of little worms and bugs. Now the only real worry is those aerial applications and you will usually get significant notification about them. I just don't understand why if these nics/imids are as vile as some say they are, I have not seen any major bee kills. It begins to smell of politics and not science...
    Dont tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled. - The Quran

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by orthoman View Post
    but in no way would we be able to feed ourselves and the world without pesticides.

    As suggested by others, I would strongly recommend you educate yourself and read about the subject -- maybe starting at scientificbeekeeping.com
    I suggest you do some research you might learn something more about organics Sumant Kumar, a farmer in Nalanda district of India’s poorest state Bihar,used only farmyard manure without any herbicides and has grown an astonishing 22.4 tons of rice on one 2.5 acres of land. Rice is the staple food of more than half the world’s population of seven billion and Kumar's accomplishment is a world record. It beat not just the 19.4 tons achieved by the Chinese agricultural scientist Yuan Longping, but also the World Bank-funded scientists at the International Rice Research Institute in the Philippines, and anything achieved by the largest European and American seed and GM companies. http://www.examiner.com/article/indi...c-rice-potatoe For 30 years the Rodale Institute Farming Systems Trial (FST) has been tracking the performance of organically grown grain crops (such as corn and soybeans) and conventional, chemical-reliant grain crops. Following the three years when the fields were being transitioned to organic production, the organic corn fields produced just as much food as the conventional fields. And while conventional growers are battling herbicide-resistant superweeds with bigger, bad-er chemicals, the FST organic crops hold their own against weeds producing just as much food as the conventional fields without the assistance of herbicide. http://rodaleinstitute.org/2012/the-...eed-the-world/
    Im really not that serious

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I suggest you do some research you might learn something more about organics ...... ....
    You seem to be recommending "organics" for other people, yet you use pesticides in your own hives.

    In a thread on fogging hives you posted:
    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    In the video fatbeeman says if you fog once a week you aint going to have any mites but ya only need to do it once every 3 weeks to break the mite/ brood cycle. Not sure if he uses sbb when I did a lot of the fog came out the bottom.
    - and -
    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No this is effective in killing adults. One side of the cardboard is removed so the corrugation is exposed; the checkmite is stapled to this side and placed with the checkmit down. The beetles hide under the cardboard and are killed by contact with the checkmite.
    Your stance on organics seems to change when your own direct interests are at stake.

    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Sumant Kumar, a farmer in Nalanda district of India’s poorest state Bihar,used only farmyard manure without any herbicides and has grown an astonishing 22.4 tons of rice on one 2.5 acres of land. Rice is the staple food of more than half the world’s population of seven billion and Kumar's accomplishment is a world record. It beat not just the
    Kumar did a great job on 2.5 acres.... now he needs to step up 2500 acres of soybeans. It's gonna take more than his communities night soil to fertilize that... and just wait till those bean beetles hit.... guess we need about 1000 kumars per farm.....
    Dont tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled. - The Quran

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    I think mac is stuck in a loop.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    well if anybody wants it here is my humble opinion on the matter:

    it's another case of 'it depends'.

    humans started chemistry experiments when they learned how to control fire.

    humans started environmental experiments when they started clearing the forests and other wild lands.

    when it comes to using chemicals human's synthesize (pesticides and others), it's not an either/or but rather a both/and proposition.

    the proposition is not that either the chemicals are greatest thing since sliced bread or that the chemicals are the curse of the land,

    but instead it's a little of both.

    it depends on your point of view which is shaped by your objectives.

    for one person sliced bread never had any appeal anyway, and for the another that sliced bread looks pretty good.

    part of me wishes that all i have to do is stand in solidarity with enough like-minded people and we can make the risks associated with standard practices (not perfect but the best we have right now) disappear.

    but my other side knows that it's just a pipe dream, because eliminating the risk has the greater likelihood of bringing on even greater challenges, and i'm not sure we as a species have that choice anyway.

    it's a matter of coming up with an acceptable risk/benefit ratio, and that's hard to agree on as a society, especially when each person has a right to their opinion of risk and to their opinion of benefit.

    but it make for good forum fodder. (that's ff beepro)
    Last edited by squarepeg; 04-21-2013 at 08:20 AM.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    why do you assume the vinegar is better than Roundup? Both are killing that plant and the stuff around it.....
    I wouldn't put round up on a salad. Would you??
    Im really not that serious

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Ban Bee Poison 2,500,000 have signed already!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    You seem to be recommending "organics" for other people, yet you use pesticides in your own hives. Your stance on organics seems to change when your own direct interests are at stake.
    FGMO isn't a pesticide. Check mite was used 13 years ago. Some of us learn a better way and make changes
    Im really not that serious

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