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  1. #1
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    Default Curosity question for the experts

    Hypothetical-

    If you find a queen in a hive and move her to another box will all the bees go to the new box after the queen smell has diminished form the old box?

    I have yet to find an unmarked queen.

    Supposing you moved the old box and moved the new box where the old box was...
    What would move over besides the foragers?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    I would like to help with an answer, but I haven't a clue where you are going with the question. Can you ask it in a different way? John

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    I know you can get drift from queenlees nucs to queenright colonies nearby, but if the old hive has brood I doubt much will move. Moving the new box to the old location isn't really having the foragers move over... to them they're going back home.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    To your first question, no. what will happen if you do that is any feild bees you had with the queen will abandon her and go to the orininal area of there home leaving the ones in the new spot with the queen weak. if you only moved the queen to the new spot with out bees she will die with no bees to feed her.

    second question, I don't know what your asking.
    Will Gruenwald Chilliwack BC

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    If you find a queen in a hive and move her to another box will all the bees go to the new box after the queen smell has diminished form the old box?

    Is this like a split? I am not sure how your queen move is like.
    Yes and no. Depending on how the queen is moved either horizontal or vertical. Let say you have 2 boxes one on top of another. You find the queen in the lower box and moved her to the upper box. Then yes most of the bees will goto the upper box to tend to the queen. Majority of the nurse bees will stay at the bottom box to tends to the broods and larvae. Because the bees all wondering over these 2 boxes the queen pheromone will never diminish too much. Once they are in contact with the queen they will distribute her smell all over these 2 hives.


    I have yet to find an unmarked queen.
    It is hard to find an unmarked queen with so many bees inside a hive. If you want to find her then put another hive box in between to separate the 2 boxes for 24 hours.. The one box with the most bees not counting the nurse bees then should find the queen there. If not then this experiment did not work out. I have never done this before. But worth a try to see if you could find her this way. Another way is to find the eggs along with many empty cells. The eggs that the queen just laid and the empty cells for her to lay some more. The queen should be very nearby.

    Supposing you moved the old box and moved the new box where the old box was...
    What would move over besides the foragers?

    Is this a box reverse position? Or are you talking about a split again?
    Again, if this is a vertical movement like a box swap, the majority of the nurse bees will stay with the broods and larvae frames. The majority foragers will stay with the empty cell combs to fill in nectar and pollen. The queen might move to lay in the empty cells though.

    The queen moment is to find empty cells to lay eggs in. If you find those combs along with some eggs then the queen will most likely be there.
    I'm not sure if these what if scenarios will help you much to answer here.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    When I make queenless nucs, and move them to another yard, occasionally I take an old queen by mistake. The next day when I install the queens, the queen-right nuc will have a huge beard of bees that were attracted from the queenless nucs because of the queen. While some of the bees from the queenless nucs drift to the queen-right nuc, not all of the bees drift.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    ... the queen-right nuc will have a huge beard of bees that were attracted from the queenless nucs because of the queen..
    Thanks for that tidbit Michael. I experienced this yesterday. I have 48 double deeps packed with bees recently brought up from Florida temporarily parked at a location too small for them. I've been moving them off the pallets onto bottom boards and splitting in half as I move them to out yards. I noticed some of the hives in the new yards have heavy bearding after a few hours. I'm tapped out after my Florida trip so I'm letting them raise their own queens.

    Did anyone mention beekeeping is a lot of hard work? I hate moving hives, but love the new yards.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    I wasn't thinking split but actually it is. These comments have convinced me that nurse bees are cemented to brood while the rest of the adult bees are cemented to the queen's pheromones.

    So if we put it to a vote which way is the best way to split:

    1 Taking brood and nurse bees and putting them in another box at a new location.

    2 Leaving brood and nurse bees and taking the queen and the rest of the bees to a new location.

    A In one case assume the new location is distant.

    B This case assume the new location is close.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Ace, hypothetically, would you be buying a queen or letting them raise their own? How many boxes of what size are you starting with?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Ace,
    To confuse the issue further, it isn’t uncommon for me to make queenright and queenless splits in the same yard. The original hive remains in its place and the splits go fifty, or so, feet away. Sometimes I don’t look for a queen but make sure the original and split both have brood and plenty of bees. At the end of the day, regardless of where the queen ended up, the old foragers will return to the original hive. As long as there were plenty of nurse bees with the split…a quorum should remain.
    Maybe that doesn’t work up north…but isn’t a problem here.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    I have heard that the bees are more loyal to the brood than the queen. so you have to factor in the volume of brood.

    In my experience I did this sort of backwards. moving the bees to a separate box a foot or so away from their queen. they did not go back they simply made a new queen.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    In my experience I did this sort of backwards. moving the bees to a separate box a foot or so away from their queen. they did not go back they simply made a new queen.
    Sometimes mine are only a few feet apart too....and if there were enough nurse bees with the brood....no problem. The nurse bees are loyal to the brood, in my experience.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Leaving brood and nurse bees and taking the queen and the rest of the bees to a new location.

    This sounds like a lot of work to prepare in my opinion.


    At first it wasn't a split, and now it actually is.....

    What is the objective? Increase? Prevent swarming?


    And if you are "queen blind" you will never know where your queens are so it actually IS entirely hypothetical.

    Maybe you should make "find my queens" as an objective for 2013. Marking them could be another.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Michael Bush seems to feel when you make a walk away split the foragers favor the queen. He suggest you swap the split hives to equalize numbers. Why would I waste my time disrupting a hive just so I could thump my chest that I found the queen? It doesn't seem to make a difference for me.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Quiney WI View Post
    Ace, hypothetically, would you be buying a queen or letting them raise their own?
    Raise their own. Let's assume there is enough population and stores to do a split.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Michael Bush seems to feel when you make a walk away split the foragers favor the queen.
    I don't think Bush said that. If so can you provide a link?
    Last edited by BeeCurious; 04-11-2013 at 07:44 AM. Reason: Non-intervention beekeeping is à la Acebird is a bunch of BS
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Then I vote for option 2. I like to isolate the queen by placing an excluder in the nest and check in a week to see which box has eggs. I would make sure that I left one frame with eggs on the old site, and that way there would be only one to watch for the development of queen cells if I was so inclined.
    Last edited by Adrian Quiney WI; 04-11-2013 at 10:23 AM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Michael Bush seems to feel when you make a walk away split the foragers favor the queen. He suggest you swap the split hives to equalize numbers.
    What you are referring to is MB's description of an even split, with the hives turned face to face.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#kinds
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    ... Why would I waste my time disrupting a hive just so I could thump my chest that I found the queen? ...
    Who do you know that thumps their chest every time they find a queen in the hive?
    We the willing have done so much with so little for so long we can now do anything with nothing

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Curosity question for the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    Who do you know that thumps their chest every time they find a queen in the hive?
    This would require closer analysis... In my opinion.

    Last edited by BeeCurious; 04-11-2013 at 11:58 AM. Reason: I'm not an authority on "queen search envy "
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

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