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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Vernonia Or
    Posts
    87

    Default Re: Will replacing frames with undrawn foundation slow down potential swarming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    What do you want more bees or more honey? If you are going to split do it now, assuming you have a flow. Right now you only have two deeps, that is not a big deal as far as hives go. I don't know what your goals are - where you want to be a few years from now. Splitting after a flow means you have to feed sugar or syrup to create an artificial flow. Not my style.
    Doesn't more bees equal more honey?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Sullivan, MO
    Posts
    892

    Default Re: Will replacing frames with undrawn foundation slow down potential swarming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joel_T View Post
    Doesn't more bees equal more honey?
    I think he was referring to managing one hive to keep it from swarming and get more honey, or splitting that hive into 2 or 3 to keep them from swarming and you end up with more bees, but in 2 or 3 hives. 2 or 3 weaker hives will NOT produce more honey than 1 really strong hive. (assuming the numbers are similar) So that's what he was talking about more bees= more hives not necessarily more total #s of bees (at least to start).

    One other thing to consider is there is more than 1 type of swarm. If they are really healthy and great numbers they may do a reproductive swarm regardless of how much room you have given them. Compare that to a NUC that will swarm if you don't give them more room, this would be an overcrowding swarm. Type 1 you stop by doing it for them, artificial swarm (you can always recombine later if that's your preference), Type 2 you stop by giving them more room BEFORE they start swarm preparations.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Plantsville, Ct.
    Posts
    176

    Default Re: Will replacing frames with undrawn foundation slow down potential swarming?

    In doing an artificial swarm of 2 deeps overflowing with bees at this point in the spring, how many frames would you remove & which ones?
    My goals are to prevent swarming, give the hive a brood break, replace the 2 year old queen and possibly get a few more virgins out of the deal. Also to begin another hive while not limiting the harvesting potential of the big hive. And that's all !! 😄
    Last edited by JonnyBeeGood; 04-17-2013 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Adding more

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Sullivan, MO
    Posts
    892

    Default Re: Will replacing frames with undrawn foundation slow down potential swarming?

    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyBeeGood View Post
    In doing an artificial swarm of 2 deeps overflowing with bees at this point in the spring, how many frames would you remove & which ones?
    My goals are to prevent swarming, give the hive a brood break, replace the 2 year old queen and possibly get a few more virgins out of the deal. Also to begin another hive while not limiting the harvesting potential of the big hive. And that's all !! ��
    Well if you want to get honey I would remove the minimum to make them think they had swarmed. If there is plenty of young brood/eggs, then I would take the frame the queen is on, 2 other frames of brood (late open brood, and 1 capped brood), then pollen and honey frames. I would also shake a bunch more bees into the NUC box and then move it to another location so those extra bees stay. The old hive should still be plenty strong, have eggs and young larva to make queens with and beyond that they will have a brood break and can focus on raising the new queens (really only about 5 or so days) and also on collecting nectar. Now you can go back in 8 or 9 days and make some more splits with the extra queen cells or you can let them sort it out and just have 1 new queen. (I like the idea of a few extra splits because mating flights aren't 100%, she might get eaten by a bird or dragonfly). The old queen (who might be just a fine producer still) is still trucking along in the nuc, in a couple weeks time you will need to expand them to either a 2nd story 5 frame or to a 10 frame box to allow them to grow back into a full hive.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,217

    Default Re: Will replacing frames with undrawn foundation slow down potential swarming?

    >I am wondering what are the possible effects if it is done to early?

    Here's the scenario. If you pull all the open brood out of the hive two weeks before the flow, and you make that hive queenless (as the queen is with the open brood) and you take pollen and honey (because the new hive has no field force they will need it) and you crowd them (removing some of the brood area, like at least one deep or two mediums) then the sequence goes like this:

    They start a new queen from a four day old larva and she emerges just as the flow starts. She's not mated yet. Meanwhile in that two weeks all of the open brood emerges and is jobless because there is no brood to care for. So, since the queen isn't an old queen who is ready to swarm, and since there is no brood to care for, the young bees get recruited to forage. Since the flow is just starting they have plenty to forage and the hive makes a big crop. Since there is no brood area to put the honey in they draw comb, if needed, like crazy and store honey, like crazy. Two weeks after this the queen is finally laying again. The brood nest starts to grow, but still does not require a lot of nurse bees at first so the young bees continue to forage.

    Now let's do it five weeks before the flow. At four weeks we lose a full turnover of brood we could have had for the flow. That's less foragers. Also, the queen will emerge three weeks sooner and if they are crowded and there is no flow, and the unemployed nurse bees are not employed and they are more likely to swarm. Assuming they don't, we hit the flow with as much as half as many bees (because of that lost turnover of brood) and much less honey.

    Let's try two weeks AFTER the flow: This isn't as bad IF the flow is reasonably long. It just means those young bees won't get recruited until two weeks later than they would have, so you lose two weeks of their work, but things could still go pretty well.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,388

    Default Re: Will replacing frames with undrawn foundation slow down potential swarming?

    My bees here in NM have been consistently filling empty foundation almost overnight - as fast as I can feed it to them.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

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