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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    "feeding the world" is a good topic for TG. How crops affect bees is a good topic for this forum.
    Regards, Barry

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    I see the comment about bes do not collect nectar or pollen from corn often. This immediately casues me to suspect that the person has not given the issue much thought. I understand that nectar and pollen woudl be the two things that a person with average knowledge of bees woudl think bees get from plants. But not a beekeeper that I would expect has spend some time gaining far beyond common knowledge. if they did not I do not think they have put much effort into their beekeeping or their opinion about bees. Pollen is hardly the only thing bees forage for. and I do not see anyone that has ever claimed it is. Nectar is also not the only thing bees forage for. Again I do not recall anyone has claimed that either. Pollen and honey together are also not the only thing bees forage for although many times comments indicate this is what is believed. Bees forage for all sorts of plant resins juices and other plant products just in the making of propolis alone. Bees also harvest things such as honey dew from aphids that do feed on the plants. Do you ever see a bee in a corn field? If you do have you ever figured out what it is doing there. I have no question that bees commonly come in contact with corn, I have bees that will land on me. I do to think I resemble anything that is foragable. That the only way bees could pick up what is in these plants is by foraging nectar or pollen is very short sighted. Bees are in the corn. the corn has been poisoned. close enough for me to consider contamination assured.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    My question was a simple one and here it is again for clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I am wondering if anyone posting on here has ever actually observed a honeybee gathering pollen on a field corn plant. I know I haven't and I have stood in many fields adjacent to our bee yards observing.
    Corn does not yield nectar though there are some that suspect the transfer of guttation fluids could transfer neonics into hives but no one has ever been able to observe or prove that ever happens. Yes bees will "land" on about anything. That is much different than active pollen gathering. Its also important to note that the concern in Europe has always been primarily about the planter dust issue as there have been documented kills from it. The quandary and the delays in the decision were about (in addition to the highly politicized issue it had become) whether that issue has been remedied. If researchers could find neonic laced corn pollen in crashing hives and none in healthy hives this would be a slam dunk. This, of course, is not the case. And no, bees cannot be assumed to be "in the corn" unless you either see them there or find traces of corn products in the hive.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    My question was a simple one and here it is again for clarity.


    Corn does not yield nectar though there are some that suspect the transfer of guttation fluids could transfer neonics into hives but no one has ever been able to observe or prove that ever happens. Yes bees will "land" on about anything. That is much different than active pollen gathering. Its also important to note that the concern in Europe has always been primarily about the planter dust issue as there have been documented kills from it. The quandary and the delays in the decision were about (in addition to the highly politicized issue it had become) whether that issue has been remedied. If researchers could find neonic laced corn pollen in crashing hives and none in healthy hives this would be a slam dunk. This, of course, is not the case. And no, bees cannot be assumed to be "in the corn" unless you either see them there or find traces of corn products in the hive.
    http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemi d=129&url=/articles/apido/pdf/2005/01/M4053.pdf

    Published in Apidologe - March 2005.

    Modes of honeybees exposure to systemic insecticides: estimated amounts of contaminated pollen and nectar consumed by different categories of bees Agnès Rortaisa, Gérard Arnolda, Marie-Pierre Halmb and Frédérique Touffet-Briensb

    In areas of extensive cultures of pollen-bearing crops, large amounts of pollens coming from these plants might be brought back to the colony. For example, honeybees can collect [B] 10 to 20 kg of sunflower or maize pollen per year and sometimes even more [/B], (Odoux et al., 2004). During the flowering time of these plants, which lasts between 1 and 1.5 months, sunflower and maize pollens can represent up to 80–90% of the total weight of all pollen types collected by honeybees (Odoux et al., 2004).

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    There is nothing in this 8 year old French study that quantifies how much, if any, corn pollen is actually gathered by honeybees. It only states what "can" be collected. Again, the European decision was based on the very real, concern that planter dust can kill bees particularly when there is direct seeding over flowering plants. My understanding is this has been remedied but I have no data or opinion on that. It's erroneous to leave people with the impression that bees forage on neonic laced corn pollen, because they don't.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    In areas of extensive cultures of pollen-bearing crops, large amounts of pollens coming from these plants might be brought back to the colony. For example, honeybees can collect [B] 10 to 20 kg of sunflower or maize pollen per year and sometimes even more [/B], (Odoux et al., 2004). During the flowering time of these plants, which lasts between 1 and 1.5 months, sunflower and maize pollens can represent up to 80–90% of the total weight of all pollen types collected by honeybees (Odoux et al., 2004).
    Wonder what type of Maize, Odoux is looking at. In a little more that a month I will be surrounded by perhaps 1000 acres of field corn.... I would have to agree with Jim, that I have never see bees gather their pollen. I will take it a bit further... sitting in a beeyard of about 40 hives less than a football field from this corn are quite a number of bees. Yet if I stroll through this field corn... it is a rare occurrence even to see a honeybee..... now sweet corn.... that's an different matter.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Z
    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    now sweet corn.... that's an different matter.
    Agreed. I would be concerned having bees next to large acreages of sweet corn. Fortunately that is a real small percentage of US acreage and is only grown in large quantities in select areas near canning facilities.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Z
    Agreed. I would be concerned having bees next to large acreages of sweet corn. Fortunately that is a real small percentage of US acreage and is only grown in large quantities in select areas near canning facilities.
    The only sweet corn we have is in our garden and they are heritage seeds, save from generation to generation. And yes.... bees do feed on the pollen. I wonder if bees ever liked field corn.....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Herb: I wonder too. As you know, years ago when bees produced tremendous amounts of pollen there were usually lots of other stuff for bees to work, even in the cornfield itself. Ahb for the good old days of old fashioned farming.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Yep you can grow more using chems but it cost’s more depletes the soil, kills wildlife, pollutes water, and it’s not sustainable.
    Roundup enables farmers to conserve topsoil which in turn enables them to farm the same land for hundreds of years. Neonic seed treatments prevent wildlife from being exposed to sprays and prevents water pollution because they are applied at extremely low rates (around 1 ounce of clothianidin per acre of corn).

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    There is nothing in this 8 year old French study that quantifies how much, if any, corn pollen is actually gathered by honeybees. It only states what "can" be collected. Again, the European decision was based on the very real, concern that planter dust can kill bees particularly when there is direct seeding over flowering plants. My understanding is this has been remedied but I have no data or opinion on that. It's erroneous to leave people with the impression that bees forage on neonic laced corn pollen, because they don't.
    You are completely mistaken on this statement. 'Planter Dust' was not the issue at all in the European ban, since bans had already been imposed in France, Germany and Italy on use of neonic treated seeds for maize - as long ago as 2000 in France and 2009 in Germany and Italy.

    The European Food Safety Agency report, which advised a ban for two years on imidacloprid, thiamethoxam and clothianidin, was centred on the sub-lethal, chronic poisoning that derived from bees gathering pollen and nectar from 'bee attractive' crops, including: corn, oilseed rape/ canola, sunflowers and spring sown cereals.

    Planter-exhaust dust was not the issue, in fact it is barely mentioned in the Commission's legal case. The widespread use of systemic neonicotinoids which spread through the entire plant internally, to produce pollen and nectar that is lethal to bees is the issue

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    You are completely mistaken on this statement. 'Planter Dust' was not the issue at all in the European ban, since bans had already been imposed in France, Germany and Italy on use of neonic treated seeds for maize - as long ago as 2000 in France and 2009 in Germany and Italy.
    Look what happened after the ban in France in 2000:

    http://www.eenews.net/public/Greenwire/2012/04/24/3

    When Gaucho was taken off the market [in France], Fischer added, the health of the country's bees did not improve. He also pointed out that imidacloprid has been widely used in the United States since the mid-1990s, but the sharp decline in bees did not come until about a decade later. Fischer's remarks were largely confirmed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which has done extensive research on the issue.

    Dr. Julian Little, Bayer CropScience
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22339191

    "We have two controls for all of this. One is France; we've had massive restrictions on these products for over 10 years, have we seen any improvement in bee health? No. The other control is Australia where neonicotinoids are used in exactly the same way as in the UK, same formula same crops and they have the healthiest bees on the planet. The difference there is they don't have varroa [mites]."

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Look what happened after the ban in France in 2000:

    http://www.eenews.net/public/Greenwire/2012/04/24/3

    When Gaucho was taken off the market [in France], Fischer added, the health of the country's bees did not improve. He also pointed out that imidacloprid has been widely used in the United States since the mid-1990s, but the sharp decline in bees did not come until about a decade later. Fischer's remarks were largely confirmed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which has done extensive research on the issue.

    Dr. Julian Little, Bayer CropScience
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22339191

    "We have two controls for all of this. One is France; we've had massive restrictions on these products for over 10 years, have we seen any improvement in bee health? No. The other control is Australia where neonicotinoids are used in exactly the same way as in the UK, same formula same crops and they have the healthiest bees on the planet. The difference there is they don't have varroa [mites]."
    For goodness sake - Julian Little is Bayer's Chief Propagandist! What do you think he's going to say? He's the manufacturer of the worst bee-killing pestiticides on the planet. Are you seriously suggesting he has no 'conflict of interest' in saying that neonics have no case to answer?

    The facts are plain. Bayer lied all the way down the line - from 1992 when they said Imidacloprid 'never emerged in pollen and nectar' - right dow to today, when its: varroa, varroa, varroa.

    The French had varroa since the 1960s - and for forty years they had no mass bee collapses, despite every hive in France having to deal with varroa. Then in 1994 Bayer introduced Gaucho (imidacloprid) and in less than 2 years they had one million dead hives among the sunflowers.
    But colonies from the same bee farms, which were NOT placed in the neonic treated sunflowers, but in the forests nearby - they did not die.

    "There's none so blind as those who will not see"

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    For goodness sake - Julian Little is Bayer's Chief Propagandist! What do you think he's going to say? He's the manufacturer of the worst bee-killing pestiticides on the planet. Are you seriously suggesting he has no 'conflict of interest' in saying that neonics have no case to answer?
    When you can't attack the message you attack the messenger. So far no one from the anti-neonic camp has been able to tell us why Australia has the healthiest bees on the planet despite the fact Australia uses the the same neonicotinoid formulas and on the same crops as in the UK. Nor have they been able to explain why Switzerlands bees are in poor health despite the fact neonics aren't used in that country.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    "feeding the world" is a good topic for TG. How crops affect bees is a good topic for this forum.
    I see your point. But bees help feed the world and organics feed the bees .
    I’m really not that serious

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Roundup enables farmers to conserve topsoil which in turn enables them to farm the same land for hundreds of years.).
    Organic farming improves the soil and builds nutrients not like depleting soil nutrients using roundup and chem. Fertilizers.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Anionic seed treatments prevent wildlife from being exposed to sprays and prevents water pollution because they are applied at extremely low rates (around 1 ounce of clothianidin per acre of corn).
    Birds and wildlife eat the seeds. And water is polluted from runoff and seeping into the aquifer but testing was never done before these chems were released into the environment. We can only talk about bees here. No more farming. But we now have supper weeds that are no longer affected by round up and I wonder if bees collect pollen and nectar from these supper weeds and I bet no one has done a study on round up in pollen or honey. Maybe round up in conjunction with neonic seeds is the cause of CCD. I think a study should be done but not going to happen.
    Last edited by mac; 05-06-2013 at 04:44 AM.
    I’m really not that serious

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    It seems to me that mos think the ony way bees woudl get pollen from corn is that intentionally foraged on the corn. this is not true. that is like saying you get dust in your house only if you want it. Corn is a wind pollinated plant. it does not even really have a flower it has tassles that are exposed to the wind specifically so the wind can blow the pollen around. The pines in the mountains around our valley are the same. you can actually see clouds of yellow pollen above the trees on a windy day. that cloud can and will travel well over 25 miles and cover everything in town with a thick layer of dust. You can wash off your car or a patio and see the piles of pollen getting washed away. There is nothing a bee could touch and not collect pine pollen.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    You are quite correct Daniel, corn is wind pollinated, but it takes a relatively tiny amount of pollen (and a really short time frame )to do the job required. The excess pollen production that used to result in the clouds of pollen that was obvious in corn years ago has been bred out of the plant in a quest for yield (less pollen more grain). In short there are no longer clouds of pollen being released from the tassels as you see coming off of many of the trees. The assumption that bees would bypass a pollen laden tassel to gather pollen corn pollen that has free fallen somewhere isn't based on anything other than speculation. Bees don't much care for field corn pollen, it's rarely found in bee hives and I'm not sure I have ever observed them actually cleaning any kind of pollen t off of vehicles or anything else besides the plants that emit the stuff. Why would they? As a parallel it seems like the only time I have ever gotten them to rob on dry pollen substitute is when there is nothing else available.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    From my observations, bees are creatures of design and their design is to get their pollen from flowering sources, not off the ground. I have seen many times where a gathered ball of pollen has fallen off the bee at the entrance to a hive. It will sit there until it gets blown or knocked off. The bees will ignore it.
    Regards, Barry

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    From my observations, bees are creatures of design and their design is to get their pollen from flowering sources, not off the ground. I have seen many times where a gathered ball of pollen has fallen off the bee at the entrance to a hive. It will sit there until it gets blown or knocked off. The bees will ignore it.
    Good point Barry. It always amazes me to see all this pollen around the entrances as well. It makes you wonder why they can have such a strong instinct to do all the work of gathering it and then just ignore the fruits of their labors when it falls just inches from its destination. Must just be the general excitement of the gathering process......or something.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

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