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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Limonchenko View Post
    Imidacloprid is 7297x more toxic to honeybees than DDT (acute toxicity). However, acute toxicity is not the main problem. Imidacloprid is highly persistent (160 days halflife time in water, 2 years in soil)
    DDT is much more persistent than neonics: http://www.epa.gov/oppt/pbt/pubs/ddt.htm

    The alternatives are more dangerous to bees and everyone else.

    Tom

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    I can't sign a petition to ban a product which might be a problem for bees.

    Now if I can find a petition to ban the EPA, I'd be all over it.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Limonchenko View Post

    Countries such as France, England, Italy, Germany and Slovenia have banned at least some form of Neonicotinoids (e.g. for seed treatments).
    Not sure where you got that information from but in the case of England (UK) This is a Department of Agriculture (DEFRA) statement from 9th April.

    The UK government’s position

    Defra has kept evidence on neonicotinoids under open-minded scrutiny. We assess new studies as they emerge and consider how they alter the overall situation.
    Following this work, we have produced an assessment of the evidence about neonicotinoids and bees. The assessment cannot exclude rare effects of neonicotinoids on bees in the field. However, it suggests that effects on bees do not occur under normal circumstances.
    Germany imposed a temporary ban after the corn/maize seed drilling/planter dust bee kills of 2008
    France banned some neonics on some crops but bee problems remained.
    I think Slovenia has had a ban for quite a while.

    Surely a petition should get the basic facts straight before asking people to sign.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Surely a petition should get the basic facts straight before asking people to sign.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    I am familiar with those studies but none of them claim that neonicotinoids cause CCD
    Does it have to CAUSE CCD to have a "negative impact" on bees?

    Up from 9 sigs to 49.
    Zone 7b ~ Central Arkansas
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymore View Post
    Does it have to CAUSE CCD to have a "negative impact" on bees?
    .
    Of course not but the petition states:

    Numerous recent studies link the CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder) of honeybees to the use of certain Neonicotinoid pesticides
    The opposite is in fact true. Many studies have looked for a link and failed to find one.
    CCD has a defined set of symptoms so ascribing any colony death to CCD is not helpful.

    This study by Van Engelsdorp looked at CCD.

    Background

    Over the last two winters, there have been large-scale, unexplained losses of managed honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies in the United States. In the absence of a known cause, this syndrome was named Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) because the main trait was a rapid loss of adult worker bees. We initiated a descriptive epizootiological study in order to better characterize CCD and compare risk factor exposure between populations afflicted by and not afflicted by CCD.
    Methods and Principal Findings

    Of 61 quantified variables (including adult bee physiology, pathogen loads, and pesticide levels), no single measure emerged as a most-likely cause of CCD. Bees in CCD colonies had higher pathogen loads and were co-infected with a greater number of pathogens than control populations, suggesting either an increased exposure to pathogens or a reduced resistance of bees toward pathogens. Levels of the synthetic acaricide coumaphos (used by beekeepers to control the parasitic mite Varroa destructor) were higher in control colonies than CCD-affected colonies.
    Conclusions/Significance

    This is the first comprehensive survey of CCD-affected bee populations that suggests CCD involves an interaction between pathogens and other stress factors. We present evidence that this condition is contagious or the result of exposure to a common risk factor. Potentially important areas for future hypothesis-driven research, including the possible legacy effect of mite parasitism and the role of honey bee resistance to pesticides, are highlighted.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    PETITION REQUESTS...

    Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides, until proven that it does not negatively impact honeybees.

    Of course I'm concerned about CCD but I'm more concerned about pesticide use - on food, in air, on bees and other insects.
    Zone 7b ~ Central Arkansas
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymore View Post
    PETITION REQUESTS...
    Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides, until proven that it does not negatively impact honeybees.

    Of course I'm concerned about CCD but I'm more concerned about pesticide use - on food, in air, on bees and other insects.
    I share your concerns about pesticide use but it bugs me when people make statements about CCD being at least part caused by neonicotinoid pesticides without providing any evidence. It renders a petition like this completely pointless.

    The danger here is that neonicotinoids will be replaced by some other pesticide family so if that happens we would need to be sure that it is less harmful to bees, pollinators, the wider environment and human health.

    Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    Not sure where you got that information from but in the case of England (UK) This is a Department of Agriculture (DEFRA) statement from 9th April.

    The UK government’s position
    Germany imposed a temporary ban after the corn/maize seed drilling/planter dust bee kills of 2008
    France banned some neonics on some crops but bee problems remained.
    I think Slovenia has had a ban for quite a while.

    Surely a petition should get the basic facts straight before asking people to sign.
    jonathan, from the article you linked to.
    "Defra has kept evidence on neonicotinoids under open-minded scrutiny. We assess new studies as they emerge and consider how they alter the overall situation.

    We’ve taken advice from the independent expert Advisory Committee on Pesticides, which has considered the evidence on several occasions. The committee advised in January 2013 that there were grounds for a review of neonicotinoid authorisations under pesticides legislation. This is being done by the HSE’s Chemicals Regulation Directorate."

    From what I have seen in the past this caused some bans in some areas while the investigation was under way.

    "The EC has drawn up plans for a ban on the use of three neonicotinoids on a long list of crops. We’re urging the Commission to make sure the measures proposed are proportionate to the risks."

    I do not have links to them but I have seen several articles sine January that do state that some bans in some areas for some Nics are in effect. So far it seems these bans are pending further investigation. Maybe those investigations have been conducted and the bans are being lifted. This is just the latest comment that has been made in a list of comments.

    This portion of your linked article woudl tend to confirm that.
    "Following this work, we have produced an assessment of the evidence about neonicotinoids and bees. The assessment cannot exclude rare effects of neonicotinoids on bees in the field. However, it suggests that effects on bees do not occur under normal circumstances."
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Daniel.
    There are currently no bans on neonicotinoids in England (UK) and there never have been.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    I am familiar with those studies but none of them claim that neonicotinoids cause CCD
    I don't claim that it is THE CAUSE, but I do believe that it is the straw that broke the camel's back.
    These studies on neonicotinoids do show that they negatively impact the health of honeybees which are already stressed.
    CCD is a complex issue and I'm not sure anyone will ever be able to say what is THE CAUSE of it. It's like finding cure for cancer.

    The following list is from EPA's website:
    All of the following factors contribute to CCD:
    - invasive varroa mite (a pest of honeybees);
    - virus and or Nosema;
    - pesticide poisoning through exposure to pesticides applied to crops or for in-hive insect or mite control;
    - bee management stress;
    - inadequate forage/poor nutrition and
    - immune-suppressing stress on bees caused by one or a combination of factors above.

    And the studies do show that each one of those factors are increased when the neonics are being used.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/about/...opean-ban.html

    I was wrong about England sorry, they are just as slow as EPA. http://theunhivedmind.com/wordpress2/?p=20301

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    All the studies are nice.. so far as mentioned tehy are inconclusive.. But whats interesting to me is I live and raise bees in the THICKEST blanket of these products.. and have never seen or had a case of CCD, nor has anyone I know with 200 miles of me.... We have mites, EFB, noseama, and we lose hives.... Yes we would love to not have any issues... but my loses are no differnt now than they were before.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Limonchenko View Post

    And the studies do show that each one of those factors are increased when the neonics are being used.
    Actually, they don't.

    Pettis and Engelsdorp found that nosema levels in individual bees increased in the lab after exposure to Imidacloprid.
    He acknowledged that he was not seeing this at colony level in field studies.
    Alaux also did similar work.

    Are you suggesting that exposure to neonicotinoids increases problems with mites or virus?
    If there is a paper which shows that, I have not seen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Limonchenko View Post
    The following list is from EPA's website:
    All of the following factors contribute to CCD:
    - invasive varroa mite (a pest of honeybees);
    - virus and or Nosema;
    - pesticide poisoning through exposure to pesticides applied to crops or for in-hive insect or mite control;
    - bee management stress;
    - inadequate forage/poor nutrition and
    - immune-suppressing stress on bees caused by one or a combination of factors above.

    That is not what the EPA website says.

    This is what it says:

    There have been many theories about the cause of CCD, but the researchers who are leading the effort to find out why are now focused on these factors:

    increased losses due to the invasive varroa mite (a pest of honeybees);
    new or emerging diseases such as Israeli Acute Paralysis virus and the gut parasite Nosema;
    pesticide poisoning through exposure to pesticides applied to crops or for in-hive insect or mite control;
    bee management stress;
    foraging habitat modification
    inadequate forage/poor nutrition and
    potential immune-suppressing stress on bees caused by one or a combination of factors identified above.

    Additional factors may include poor nutrition, drought, and migratory stress brought about by the increased need to move bee colonies long distances to provide pollination services.
    They are looking at these factors. They are not claiming that they cause CCD.

    This is what they say about bees, pesticides and CCD

    Dead bees don’t necessarily mean CCD

    Certain pesticides are harmful to bees. That’s why we require instructions for protecting bees on the labels of pesticides that are known to be particularly harmful to bees. This is one of many reasons why everyone must read and follow pesticide label instructions. When most or all of the bees in a hive are killed by overexposure to a pesticide, we call that a beekill incident resulting from acute pesticide poisoning. But acute pesticide poisoning of a hive is very different from CCD and is almost always avoidable.
    Please try and be careful with what you cite and its better to provide a link so it can be verified.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    What would be the time period from exposer till CCD kills my bee's, Because I have a couple of hives that set beside my sweet corn field. I have use treated seed every year there. By the way I catch 2 swarms and get at least 3 meds of honey a year for the last five years. When are they going to die and the girls like that sweet corn pollen.
    There is a link posted in the Dan rather report bee's in almonds. It said some class of this chemical has been used since the 1700s, If it stay in soil and leaches into other plants. Why do we still have bee's.
    I heard a while back that cell phones was a part of CCD, I don't see any one trying to ban those.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdman View Post
    What would be the time period from exposer till CCD kills my bee's, Because I have a couple of hives that set beside my sweet corn field. I have use treated seed every year there. By the way I catch 2 swarms and get at least 3 meds of honey a year for the last five years. When are they going to die and the girls like that sweet corn pollen.
    There is a link posted in the Dan rather report bee's in almonds. It said some class of this chemical has been used since the 1700s, If it stay in soil and leaches into other plants. Why do we still have bee's.
    I heard a while back that cell phones was a part of CCD, I don't see any one trying to ban those.
    I am very glad that you still have bees, but hope you're not offering that honey to anyone. In case you do sell honey, make sure to label it as such: "honey from corn with neonicatinoid pesticides applied"

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    They are looking at these factors. They are not claiming that they cause CCD.
    This is what they say about bees, pesticides and CCD
    I am glad you agree with them that much. This might be helpful to you: http://www.epa.gov/jobs/openings.html

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey Limonchenko View Post
    I am very glad that you still have bees, but hope you're not offering that honey to anyone. In case you do sell honey, make sure to label it as such: "honey from corn with neonicatinoid pesticides applied"
    And as your. I sale the honey to the same people, I sale the sweet corn to.
    Last edited by Birdman; 04-11-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    All the studies are nice.. so far as mentioned tehy are inconclusive.. But whats interesting to me is I live and raise bees in the THICKEST blanket of these products.. and have never seen or had a case of CCD, nor has anyone I know with 200 miles of me.... We have mites, EFB, noseama, and we lose hives.... Yes we would love to not have any issues... but my loses are no differnt now than they were before.
    I guess I am in the same boat as GMCHARLIE.... we are surrounded Soybeans... Corn... Tobacco.... Etc etc. I have never seen CCD... if it occurred here I would know... In the urban areas I have heard people claim that CCD wiped out there 3 hives.... but it sounded more like hysteria to me.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Petition: Direct the EPA to ban the use of Neonicotinoid pesticides

    If this is such a problem, why are there still bees in the corn belt. I can drive west for a 800 miles and see nothing but corn . With hundreds of thousands pound of seed going in the ground every year for x amount of years. Why are there still bee's in these areas.

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