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Received conflicting advice on going treatment free

14K views 56 replies 30 participants last post by  StevenG 
#1 ·
We are new to beekeeping this year and will be bringing our nucs home in the next month. I was told by a beekeeper recently that while it's a lovely thought to go treatment free and "natural" that we should do standard proven methods first and then experiment with treatment free. That most newbies that try a natural approach have too many die and get frustrated. In all my reading and research it seems like nothing is solid proven so why not go treatment free and raise more resistant bees? Seems like people lose just as many bees treating with the works so he completely confused me saying to do all the proven treatments. I guess I'm just looking for a little encouragement to go the treatment free way we were planning or trying to understand what he meant. Thanks!
 
#40 · (Edited)
I had four hives I decided to experiment with last year that were packages. Yes not a good sample...but anyways... I split four hives over the course of the year into 12 over-wintering nucs. I have not treated in the past but decided to treat 6 and leave 6 alone. I lost all but two hives. Both hives that survived from this ill-fated experiment were not treated and are gang-busting into spring. Probably just luck of the draw but I will be breeding from these not using treatments on any of my hives this year.
 
#41 ·
My opinion is that if you are in an area where you can catch wild swarms that are from naturally swarming, healthy bee colonies, then try the treatment free small cell method.

If these are unavailable to you, that's a sign that your bees are going to have big problems if you don't treat.

My feeling is that, on another forum which shall remain unnamed, many beginners start out idealistically thinking that they will be treatment free with their new package bees. At first they ask many questions, then after awhile they are not heard from again. Draw your own conclusions.
 
#43 ·
My opinion is that if you are in an area where you can catch wild swarms that are from naturally swarming, healthy bee colonies, then try the treatment free small cell method.

If these are unavailable to you, that's a sign that your bees are going to have big problems if you don't treat.
Actually that's a pretty good analysis Gino, I hadn't looked at it like that before but there's probably a lot of wisdom in that statement.

While I am here, I am running a experiment this summer, testing southern production queens against "suvivor queens" do you have 10 you would be able to sell me in May? (not looking for donations) they will be balanced and weighed and tested for mites monthly.
That will be a very interesting experiment, it's so hard to get proper numbers on survivor queens just by browsing posts on the chat site.

Please keep us updated on this. What I would really like to know is how survivor queens go when moved to a different location.
 
#45 ·
As with anything, you will get conflicting opinions from experts and novice alike. Everyone likes to think they are right and at times relay only what fits their pre-drawn conclusions. . One thing that you can be certain of is that there will be plenty of bad advice on any forum like this since everyone can be a self proclaimed expert (myself included).

Treatment free is an admirable goal. If that is what you have chosen to do then you need to pick your path after reading the best supporting data available. Just be sure to understand that beekeeping is an agricultural pursuit. As such it is just as dependent on environmental and biological conditions and cycles as any other. Be prepared for setbacks and forward surges. What you think worked swell one year may end in disaster the next.

Whichever method is chosen, it will take diligent management to achieve consistent success. And even then success is what you measure by, not what others may measure by. Define your goal and strive towards it, live and learn from your mistakes and then overcome them the next go round.

Last thing is to be very careful of whose advice you take and then be sure to get the whole story of their experience and not the condensed sanitized version.

Good luck.
 
#46 ·
I suspect that part of the key to survival of treatment free bees is access to quality forage. I watched a blueberry field being cleared of rocks the other day and my thought was that there will be forage for bees for about three weeks and then nothing. So honey bees won't be establishing themselves there any time soon. Is the clearing just insurance for migratory beeks? I imagine the ability to place imported pollinators where the grower wants them is part of the goal, but only a small one. Other perceived grower benefits include increased ease for pruning, burning, pesticide/herbicide application, mechanized harvesting. Costs not considered should include native pollinator activity. Granted this area is hurting economically and these growers are making an investment, but I scratch my head when thinking of long term sustainability.
 
#48 ·
To me quality forage is forage that will meet the bee's nutritional needs growing season (and year) round - it is diverse, consisting mostly of naturally occurring plants and weeds that are not treated with anything. This is not to say that adding to the available forage is a bad thing - I planted six tulip poplars this past week - but the additions are minor parts. I've nothing against some one planting a bit of borage or a field of buckwheat, but my concern is that the bees have access to what they need beyond those blooming periods. My wife and I argue (argue is probably strong) over my efforts at keeping our blueberry field open - it was last commercially harvested roughly 10 years ago. The field is transitioning away from blueberries to lots of rosa rugosa and goldenrod/aster in the fall. It is hard to find a honey bee on the blueberries when they are in blossom, yet pollination seems to happen ok for our needs. I hope to unwrap this next week and see how the bees fared. In a perfect world the bees would be able to gather all the stores they need from their natural environs - but I don't live in heaven and fed much 2:1 in the fall.
 
#49 ·
The last several years, my dearth functionally begins in late June. The rain has stopped and all blooming plants (the only thing blooming is clover, maybe bull thistle in small amounts) have died off. Goldenrod appears briefly in the fall yielding maybe two frames in each hive going into winter. How would you characterize this nutritionally?
 
#50 ·
My guess is that nutritionally is a bit thin. As I am fond of saying all beekeeping is local, and I am by no means an expert on nutrition. My property abuts a tidal river so even when the summer dearth arrives there are things blooming along the river. Now I ought to find out if the bees find those plants attractive!

I wrote in a private letter not long ago that beekeepers have a choice to make - either do the pollination circuit and take chances with what your bees are exposed to or control (own/lease) the land that your bees forage on to make a honey crop. Lease payments need to be for more than a gallon or two of honey and I've no idea if the American consumer is prepared to pay the real cost of production. "The times they are a changing" sang Mr. Dylan, and I think concern/realization over the nature of our food supply is just beginning.
 
#51 ·
Well, I am in a place with good quality forage when the moisture is adequate; however, there comes a time most every year when the drought kicks in and the bees wind down in the fall.

In the old days (pre mite and pre beetle), the population would just keep slowly declining until some rains arrived to bring some plants into bloom. The problem here is mostly lack of pollen. The lack of food didn't cause disease problems.

After the mites had been here for 2-3 years, the bees started having problems with lots of chalkbrood, some sac brood, and dwv. And then the untreated hives would suddenly collapse and often abscond. This had nothing to do with quality of forage.

Had I let them take care of it themselves, at this point I would have no bees. Also, fwiw, the feral bees have disappeared and I haven't seen a healthy swarm of bees for several years.
So, imo, there's more to it than poor pasture. Granted, those bees which forage in insecticide laced pasture have a whole different set of problems. Maybe Monsanto can create some pesticide resistant bees to replace them! TIC
 
#52 ·
Yes I resell packages, and also sell local nucs.... Well aware of the weather issues! we had snow flurries yesterday!....

The balanceing will be at the start of the trial only, to be sure they all start the same as close as possible. all will have drawn comb, brood, and empty space.


as for trying not to treat, that is my goal. but I am not going to lose hives in the middle of honey production to do that. Normaly I would remove queens for mites, and ignore EFB until it clears on its own. last year neathier of those options worked well enough.
 
#54 ·
There's a treatment free beekeeper in northern Indiana who has an interesting view of this. His yards (he has about 150 hives, I believe) are in patches of woods in the middle of corn and soybean country. His approach is to build up his hives until they are enormous, and he gets huge yields from an area that many conventional beekeepers might think doesn't have enough forage. He does not feed, at all. His winter loss rate for the last several years has averaged 8 percent, which is far better than most treated operations. He puts a lot of emphasis on local stock derived from swarms; when most of his stock was from packages, his loss rate was 50 to 90 percent. He buys no outside stock now, and all his increase comes from splits.

His name is Tim Ives and he has several videos up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXESkk7ZhXs
 
#57 ·
Heaflaw, I don't mind telling... I've been telling for 7 years now....and I do not mind repeating myself. Appreciate you asking, for the benefit of some new readers.
My most successful bees have been from B. Weaver and Purvis. I've tried Russians, and MnHyg but they don't produce and survive as well.

I judge my success by whether they make it from one year to the next, and does my honey harvest average beat the Missouri state average. The answer to both questions is yes.

Once again, there are two ways to go treatment free. Buy from a reputable treatment free breeder, either packages or queens. (I've done both, successfully.) Or, buy any type of bee, and go treatment free, then breed from your survivors, if any. For small folks like me, the reality it that it is easier, cheaper, and a heck of a lot more fun to let someone else pay those costs, and we reap the benefits with the bees.
Kindest regards,
Steven
 
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