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Inadvertent Package Install Experiment

9K views 35 replies 13 participants last post by  Roto 
#1 ·
Hello all - new BEEK here.

Built out two TBH based on an ideas gleaned from various forums and installed a package in each today...

First, the hives:

Land lot Property Farm Pasture Grass


Screened bottom but with two hinged panels - plan to keep it closed except for cleaning or observation:

Furniture Bee Table Apiary Beehive


32 bars, 18.5" inch - cedar - ridged as shown:

Wood Wood stain Hardwood Lumber Table


End top periscope entrance, 1"x6". One on each end but far end is blocked until needed.

Wood Plywood Table Wood stain Hardwood


Cedar board mounted at angle as landing board. White board above it is the periscope cover:

Birdhouse Wood Wood stain Plywood Hardwood


So far, so good (or if not, do tell!). :)

Now - where the inadvertent experiment started...

Picked up the two packages this morning... the seller noticed one of the queens was dead so he gave me a replacement queen for the package (set it on top of the box).

Once home, I suited up and installed the first package... the one with the replacement queen on top...
- removed the syrup
- rapped the box a few times
- poured out the bees.
- popped off the replacement queen's cork and set her on top of ball of bees
- replaced the bars and closed the roof



At this point I was feeling pretty good (maybe even smug) and moved on to the second box. :cool:

Did the same with the second box/hive - but paused a moment before popping the queen's cork to note if she was marked... that's when I noticed that she was in fact quite dead. :eek:

But she wasn't supposed to be, the queen in box one should have been! :pinch:

Post haste I retrieved the now mostly empty box one and removed the queen cage which I hadn't even looked at since I assumed (there it is) that she was dead and of course she was very much alive.

So somehow the replacement queen ended up on the box with the live queen, not the dead one, and I had failed to notice (and may well have done it myself).

This all took but a few seconds... as I am standing there in whirlwind of bees - one closed hived with a replacement queen - one with a dead one... and me holding the live queen that should have gone in the aforementioned closed first hive. :scratch:

The idea of trying to reopen hive 1 and hunt for the replacement queen I had released and swap her with the queen that had been in their package crossed my mind... but only for a second as I looked at the open ball of bees in hive 2 that had no queen and no great reason to stick around at present... so into hive 2 went the queen from box 1 and back on went the bars.



:ws:

MSPaint diagram of epic fail:

Line Diagram Parallel Sign Signage



Off I skulked wondering what the bees would make of their new homes and the inadvertent round of "musical queens".

Both hives were pretty hot for the next few hours... I kept eyeballing them from a distance.

Logically I figured worst case scenario (shy of all the girls up and leaving completely) was that the bee's in hive 1 would catch wind of their more familiar queen in hive 2 and rally to her there... but after 4 hours or so hive 1 had all the bustle and hive 2 was very quiet by comparison. So much for my logic.

And that is where things now sit... waiting for day break tomorrow to see what has transpired... :waiting:
 
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#3 ·
Wouldn't worry too much. My only worry would be they may kill the queens since you released them directly (sounds like what you did) w/out a getting aquatinted period. That's why the queen cages have candy at one end. By the time the bees chew through and let the queen out they are used to her scent and consider her their own (usually takes 2-3 days to release her).

Check in a week or so for eggs.
 
#4 ·
Yeah I am not sure what is going on. I have read a few threads lately where the queen was being directly released and the beekeeper is either concerned with that process or did not know that is a bad practice. She definitely needs time to fit in...although she has spent some time with them prior to the install. Sometimes it takes sometimes it doesn't. Always ere on the side of caution and let the bees do the releasing. Hope it all works out for ya though. :thumbsup:

P.S. Nice looking Top bars!
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the compliment on the bars.

The idea for releasing the queen was based on reading a lot of Michael Bush's thoughts on the matter - mostly in context of avoiding cross combing from hanging the queen.

That said, the sheer stupidity of releasing the queen in the first hive that I knew to be a replacement was utter stupidity on my part alone.

I spent the last three weeks mentally walking through the installment process and for whatever reason didn't stop to think and readjust the plan when the shop told me the package had a dead queen.

As for the second queen... I think I just choked when mid-installment I realized I had placed the replacement in the wrong hive - and I just executed the plan I started with without thinking the release aspect through.

Hate to learn newby lessons at the expense of two packages http://www.beesource.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

I checked the hives from a short distance several times today.

This morning around 0800, hive one was pretty busy already while hive two showed very little activity.

At noon, both were bustling a lot - both seemed a bit frantic in activity, but I don't really have an eye or ear properly calibrated.

Late afternoon, hive one seemed very busy but very calm - lots of bees coming and going but little frantic flying in front of the hive.

Hive two at the same time was also very busy, but noticeably more excited and more bees in the air around the entrance.

Resisting the urge to take a look inside until at least tomorrow night, maybe Tuesday.

Should I sit tight in general or try and find two new queens sooner than later?



ETA - and thanks all for both the well deserved admonishments and the compliments on the builds!
 
#5 ·
It sounds like you direct-released an unfamiliar queen into each group of bees. You may wind up with two groups of queenless bees and two dead queens, or somehow each group of bees may accept the queens they were given. One result is more likely than the other, but both are possibilities.

Your "pivot" point was directly releasing the replacement queen to the group of bees you thought were traveling with a dead queen. Even if those bees had been queenless it would be quite risky to direct-release an unfamiliar queen to them. The direct-release technique is usually reserved for a queen that has been riding with and thereby exposed to the bees for several days before being released to them.

Then, if you also direct-released the second unfamiliar queen to the second group of bees, also, you have doubled your chances of losing at least one of these queens. I hope you keep us updated on your progress. I am hoping that you beat the odds and both colonies accept the queens you've given them and establish well.

Queenless bees rarely make much comb, so that could be an indicator of their situations, for you - vs - having to sort through clusters of bees looking for queens. Also, queenless bees often make a mournful, sad, sound, if you listen closely (I'm not kidding). You would need to put your ear to the hive to hear it well.
 
#7 · (Edited)
There are actually numerous plausible scenarios that may come about.

The bees who had the unfamiliar queen trusted upon them will probably ball the queen and she will be dead. Especially since there was another queen present at the time. It would have been the hormones of the ruling monarch they would have been governing the hive, even though she was caged. The queen that was placed in the queen less hive may have a chance and a good one if you did not just dump her in but left her in the cage for the bees to release. However since that hive was the one with the dead in the cage queen, it is possible that there may already be a queen in that colony that killed the caged queen. It the new queen survives, there is also a possibility that a scout from her original colony may discover his ruler amidst the other hive and bring the hive to her. Which may or may not result in an out and out battle between the two hives. Depending on their genetic proximity. Then again the bees in the first colony may look at life as no more that a swarming of their original hive and grow a new queen. if you provide them with frames with viable eggs. Just to mention a few! But you have now learned the most important thing about beekeeping.
It is not a hurry up, breeze through, short cut, acronym using type thing! ATTENTION TO DETAIL. A concentrated methodical approach to every aspect is the barest of essentials required to achieve a consistent degree of success and viability.
 
#11 ·
Bet the "frantic" activity is just bees orienting to their new home. Will probably see this from time to time for the next few days and then every once in a while once new brood is emerging. All you can do is sit tight for a few days. I'd watch them from the entrance to see if a lot of pollen starts to come in in a few days and also gauge their temperament. If they completely ignore you and go about their business when you are right at the entrance then that is a good sign. Queenless colonies sometimes get a little pissy.

I'd open them up in a week and look for comb and for eggs in the comb (look at the combs in the middle of the cluster). As soon as I saw some eggs or other brood (like fat larvae or capped pupae) I'd put it back together and leave them alone. If it was the first frame you pulled then you don't need to pull any more. If nothing then order the queens. If one hive is good and the other does not look good then take one frame of eggs and give to the hive w/ no brood. They will quickly raise a new queen if they don't have one. If you are not sure you can see eggs you can wait a little longer (10-14 days) and you should see the first capped pupae by then.

The longer you wait, the longer before you can get a new queen if needed. If they seem pissy all the time in the next few days you probably need a queen. If the weather stays nice the workers should live for a little bit--though they tend to die more quickly w/out a queen from what I've read.

Don't worry about the mistakes--dumber ones will be made, trust me. The more I pre-plan the more I seem to screw up. More than likely at least one queen will survive despite what the books say.
 
#13 ·
Bet the "frantic" activity is just bees orienting to their new home. Will probably see this from time to time for the next few days and then every once in a while once new brood is emerging. All you can do is sit tight for a few days. I'd watch them from the entrance to see if a lot of pollen starts to come in in a few days and also gauge their temperament. If they completely ignore you and go about their business when you are right at the entrance then that is a good sign. Queenless colonies sometimes get a little pissy.

I'd open them up in a week and look for comb and for eggs in the comb (look at the combs in the middle of the cluster). As soon as I saw some eggs or other brood (like fat larvae or capped pupae) I'd put it back together and leave them alone. If it was the first frame you pulled then you don't need to pull any more. If nothing then order the queens. If one hive is good and the other does not look good then take one frame of eggs and give to the hive w/ no brood. They will quickly raise a new queen if they don't have one. If you are not sure you can see eggs you can wait a little longer (10-14 days) and you should see the first capped pupae by then.

The longer you wait, the longer before you can get a new queen if needed. If they seem pissy all the time in the next few days you probably need a queen. If the weather stays nice the workers should live for a little bit--though they tend to die more quickly w/out a queen from what I've read.

Don't worry about the mistakes--dumber ones will be made, trust me. The more I pre-plan the more I seem to screw up. More than likely at least one queen will survive despite what the books say.
Thanks - this is the approach I think I will take.

They both seemed pretty calm this morning - a lot of coming and going.

I will check again at midday and hopefully determine if they are indeed bringing in pollen.

Another question - I put a baggie feeder in each hive when I installed them.

They are on the hive floor to the rear, adjacent the partition I put in about 12 bars back.

Should I ignore that for the week too, or pop a few of the back bars to check/replace it?
 
#17 ·
Well - It's been a week so I inspected both hives mid-day, temps were near 60 and sunny.

Hive 1, which had been externally showing more activity initially is a disaster. I don't know if calling it dead is appropriate, but it is not far from it. There was only one small stub of comb (3" long) on one bar and a few lines of wax on two other bars. There was a small cluster of bees on the comb, the rest of the bees were massed along one wall... almost zero activity. Few bees even tried to fly, most looked immobile. I did see several hive beetles and there looked like Nosema stains near the entrance.

Hive 2 was a study in opposites. Hive entrance was very busy and workers were definitely bringing in pollen. There were 4 or 5 bars with significant comb built out and heavy festooning. All were drawn straight and I only removed one to avoid disturbing their current success.

Is Hive 1 a lost cause? I put in another bag feeder and some bees did come over (walk) to it and show interest. I can't tell if they are too far gone to try moving a bar of comb/brood from the other hive over or not.


Hive 1 Pic:


Hive 1 (Sad) Video




Hive 2 (Healthy) Video
 
#18 ·
Yeah, something doesn't seem right w/ hive 1. Even if queenless they should be moving around and flying--and usually acting more irritated than normal. Almost look like some kind of exposure to something harmful. Those spots are just normal bee poop--nothing bad about that. Bees just didn't fly off to do it. Maybe its severe depression from lack of a queen. Also, you really shouldn't have hive beetles since there is no hive yet so they may have come w/ the package.

Sometimes I get a few bees clustering outside my hive on the ground that look similar (10 or 20). I just assumed they were infested w/ tracheal/varroa and voluntarily evicted themselves.

Hive 2 looks like what I'd expect. If you can find a comb w/ eggs and make sure the queen isn't on it I'd put that in there ASAP w/ the bees and all. If they are not affected by something else then this might spark them back to life. If not, then they are probably a lost cause.
 
#19 ·
I went out today expecting to see Hive 1 totally dead and instead it was full of activity.

I opened it up and found nothing what like I'd captured in the video above. Every non-dead bee was very active and they were festooned on several bars building comb. The bottom board is literally covered in dead bees though, probably close to 15% of the package by looks.

The only thing I can think of for the change was perhaps they were/are so disorganized that they didn't tolerate the overnight drop the night before (the video) to the high 30s - granted I didn't open the hive until mid-day with temps around 60. I dunno. Today was in the 70s and they were very active.

I did look in Hive 2 for a donor bar, but despite there being 4 or 5 bars with comb similar to what I showed in the video above, none looked to have capped brood - or at least that I could see. Would 7 days be enough time for it to be capped or should I have been looking closer for open cells w/eggs? I could move a bar tomorrow if that's the case or I may be able to source a queen nearby if need be.

And a few other beginner question: I think I may have seen the queen on one of the bars in hive 2... are they known to make a distinct noise when agitated? I wasn't positive it was a queen or a large drone, but whichever it was it kept it's eyes on me and beat a distinct hum with it's wings.

2nd question - when watching the landing board for hive 2, I noticed what I believe were some large drones coming and going - is that a bad sign (as in swarm or absconding)?

Thanks again for the council!
 
#21 ·
great thread!

some very good stuff in here for newbies in general.

also,

like the look of your hives ;)

thanks for the pics and sharing Roto

best of luck and please keep us posted on your bees...i'm interested to see how things go for you.
 
#22 ·
I think I answered a few of my own (beginner) questions (likely too soon to be capped brood and the bee humming at me was definitely a drone... a few did it again today).

I made a closer inspection of a few bars of Hive 2 (good hive) and did see eggs in the cells. So with that confirmed, I moved one bar over to Hive 1 that looked to have a good mix of brood and stores, along with the attendants. I spent about five minutes studying the bar to confirm the queen was not on it... hopefully I did not miss her!

With any luck, Hive 1 may recover from the fiasco. I plan on staying out of the hives completely for the next week or two and let them settle in proper. With the flow on now there doesn't look to be any need to feed either.
 
#23 ·
Good job. Took me a while to see the eggs my first time too and I am an entomologist who has reared ants since he was 10 (I had the weirdest hobby in the area).

I wouldn't worry too much about accidentally transferring the queen. The most important thing is you have eggs. Chances are there is another frame w/ brood of the appropriate age to rear a queen if she was accidentally moved though it is safer to avoid this.

Cold was my second guess for the look of hive one but usually they keep themselves warm. If it was cold then it is possible the sugar was too far away from them to get to when it got cold. W/out comb they don't have a store to eat during the night to make heat (they do this by contracting wing muscles to make metabolic heat--and this takes a lot of sugar, hence honey for food). It looked warm in your video so I couldn't tell. What I can say is that, if it was cold, it's a good thing the days were warm or they would probably be gone now. If it is cold and they have no food then the sugar should be right on top of them. This will insulate them some, keep the sugar warm for eating, and avoid the necessity of bees having to venture into a cold area to feed--where they will get too cold to return.

Anyway, I've learned a lot here by using the search bar on the left of the homepage for this site so, if you haven't already, take advantage of that. You just might get hooked!

For your bees, you are probably good now but keep an eye on them if there is a cold snap.
 
#25 ·
>Dead queens in.their cage in the package often indicate the presence of another queen...virgin or mated.

That, in my experience, is the most likely cause of a dead queen in a package. There was almost certainly one loose in the package. Odds are, no matter where you put her, the replacement queen would end up dead.
 
#30 ·
80 degrees here but gusty so I didn't linger too long in either hive.

The donor bar now in Hive 1 looked great (to me). Heavy with attendants and brood in all stages. I didn't see any queen cells, but I didn't inspect long due to the gusty conditions... also I don't know how soon I should expect to see one.

They have drawn more comb on 4 other bars already, which is 3x more comb in 3+ days than they did in the week prior to get the donor bar. I was also impressed with how many of the dead bees they have removed from the hive floor. I take that to mean they have a good # of workers left and they put them to use during a rainy day we had earlier in the week.

Hive 2 looked great again - they have some comb across 7 bars now and 3 or 4 as big or bigger than the donor bar. I didn't see their queen yet, but I was only in their hive for a quick check.

Progress pics of the donor bar in Hive 1:



Close up of brood:



And I seem to have some variety in the drones - some have very black bottoms (fellow circled in yellow):



They did drain the baggie feeder dry - plan to replace it unless someone thinks that unwise.
 

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#31 ·
Looks good. I wouldn't even worry about trying to find the queen in hive 2. Just let them go for a while. If there is no queen in hive 1 then they should have made a supercedure cell or two w/ those eggs. If they didn't I'd first look for eggs in the other frames before giving them another frame to try again. If you have eggs on another frame then there is obviously a queen there (unless you have laying workers--usually multiple eggs on the sides of cells). The cell could be hard to see as the bees will be attracted to it so it might just look like a clump of bees. If you find more eggs in hive1 and they are in the bottoms of the cells like what you saw before then make sure you check hive 2 for eggs to ensure that you didn't move that queen inadvertently.

I'd feed until the flow really kicks in. They sill stop taking it when there is sufficient forage to meet their sugar needs.
 
#32 ·
Thanks for the encouragement!

More good news today...

Hive 1 has at least two queen cells and great looking brood on the transplanted bar... hard to see under the cluster of bees on the left edge:



Hive 2s queen showed herself today and looks to be building a strong hive. Sorry for the blurry pic.

 
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