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  1. #41
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Actually that may be a very good point Deknow. In my country Apivar (the legal form of Amitraz bee treatment) is available and widely used, it is a great mite killer. With few other really great options available in the US, if Amitraz could no longer be obtained it could well be an issue. Having said all that, I have no idea whether these guys would have done anything illegal anyway, but when your back is against the wall, who knows.
    I really do not understand why Apivar is not available in the US, seems rather foolish.
    One complaint I have heard from fellow commercial beekeepers is, "Why don't beekeepers get treated like other farmers who get to buy chemicals and mix our own treatments?"
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  2. #42
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    ...but Amitraz found in pollen the last few years indicates illegal use...by the beekeepers who's pollen was sampled.

    If Dan Rather were practicing journalism, this would be part of his story. He is not....he is presenting a story to an eager public that wants to hear about evil corporations.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  3. #43
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    The contention was that TF beekeepers are somehow secretive about what they do and their results when compared to the mainstream commercial beekeepers. deknow
    I know my memory isn't what it should be, but I don't recall you stating that in those words. Which Post was that?
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  4. #44
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    We seem to have contradictory information:

    "In 2011, for the first time, the value of California's almond crop surpassed the state's iconic grape industry to move into second place, behind dairy, as the state's top commodity. "
    Did you stop to think before you posted that the grape industry consists of grapes and the wine industry consists of wine. Grapes are a commodity that is used to produce wine. Maybe you don't understand this because they haven’t produced wine in your area since the Medieval Warming Period.

    Anyway:

    • Almonds are a $4 billion dollar-a-year industry (as I said),
    • California Wine is a $20 billion dollar-a-year industry (as I said), and apparently
    • Grapes must be something more than $4 billion dollar-a-year industry.



    You said in you first post:
    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    Almonds generate more cash than California's wine and tourism industries combined.
    That is a lie.

    You also said:
    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    The Almonds are the most valuable single crop on earth
    That is shear lunacy

    Dan Rather reported that this was an "agricultural disaster", but the last part of you post above raves about how almonds are outpacing other crops:
    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    Almonds also became the top export, outpacing dairy and wine, mostly due to increased demand from Asia and a weak dollar, almond producers say. Two-thirds of the almonds produced today are shipped overseas.
    And before you go on about "outpacing dairy and wine" phrase, dont forget to read the word just before the comma - "export". That word means sending goods out of the US to other countries and doesn’t take include domestic consumption.

    So there we have what 4 or 5 instances of sensationalism, inconsistencies, lies, and fallacies in your posts? I don’t know because I lost count on page 1.

    As somebody said earlier in this thread: sensationalism and presenting false data is not the way to solve a problem.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  5. #45
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    The situation with Apivar changed last month. See this thread for more details about Apivar now becoming available in all 50 US states.
    OK well that's great news for you guys.
    I use Apivar (Amitraz) quite a bit so I've got one piece of advice. It does not kill the mites outright, rather it paralyses them. If they get enough of a dose they fall off the bees and over a few days, starve to death. The downside of this somewhat round about way to kill mites, is that some of them hang on long enough to get back into a brood cell and lay eggs. So it can take several brood cycles to get nearly all mites.

    If you want good success with Apivar, be sure to use enough, (two strips per brood box, ie, 4 strips in a 2 brood box hive), and leave it in for 10 weeks. At ten weeks, according to the manufacturer, the strips are still giving off 1/2 as much Amitraz as when new, which is still enough to do the business with the mites.

    I might do a thread on this once people start using it.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #46
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Mark, the contention I posted above is the opposite of what I've said here and on the other thread. When I tried to bring up the offlabel use (especially of Amiztraz), no one (including you) was willing to address itl
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...311#post914311
    Now, if we want to talk about being honest and forthcoming, can I assume that since we don't read about offlabel use of Amitraz by commercial beekeepers that none of the commercial beekeepers who participate in this forum were using Amitraz at all while it was not permitted? What standards of full disclosure are being expected of whom?
    ...never answered, never commented on.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  7. #47
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    I remember that, and there was no way you were going to get a reply. Anybody innocent of it would have nothing to say, and anybody guilty of it would have nothing to say.

    But hey, Amitraz in it's properly designed slow release form suitable for bees (Apivar) is a great, non residual product. If there has been a lot of illegal use in the form of fast release not bee appropriate forms, this may mean there could be resistance. Sad if that's the case.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #48
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Mark appears to have discussed this with his "fellow commercial beekeepers".

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  9. #49
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Many of us pay close attention to the data as it becomes available.
    What does Dan Rather bring to the table?

    deknow
    Oh, I don't know... maybe giving these beekeepers a national forum on which to air their grievances?

    Are you saying that beekeepers are such a politically powerful group that they don't need to get any messages out to the public?

    I have to admit that while I've always wanted to keep bees, one of the factors that made me decide to actually do it was the sensationalized coverage of CCD. I would think that as a person who wrote a book encouraging neophytes to keep bees without chemical inputs (excellent book, by the way-- I have it on Kindle) you would see the value of publicizing the fact that many beekeepers are having a tough time keeping their businesses going, despite the widespread use of miticides and other treaments. Even if they are incorrect about the reason for their difficulties, surely there is some value in letting the public know that these difficulties exist.

    Maybe I'm wrong.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I might do a thread on this (Apivar) once people start using it.
    Why wait, might be boring then. I've no desire to use any treatment, but if push comes to shove, I'd like to understand the lesser (?) of the many evils. Is it safe?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Oh, I don't know... maybe giving these beekeepers a national forum on which to air their grievances?
    Are you saying that beekeepers are such a politically powerful group that they don't need to get any messages out to the public?
    I didn't notice that there was a lack of coverage on the bee die offs.


    I would think that as a person who wrote a book encouraging neophytes to keep bees without chemical inputs (excellent book, by the way-- I have it on Kindle) you would see the value of publicizing the fact that many beekeepers are having a tough time keeping their businesses going, despite the widespread use of miticides and other treaments.
    You are missing the point. Why are these beekeepers being paid $200/hive for 2 weeks of pollination? Here is a hint....you are likely to get paid to go somewhere and to do something that you wouldn't want to do otherwise....if the job is in a dangerous war zone, the pay is likely pretty good. So far, no one has offered to pay me to go to Disneyland. What paradise do beekeepers who send their bees to the almonds expect?

    The issue with the Amitraz is important...it shows that in fact, that the LACK of an illegal miticide seems to have caused real damage...that none of the things that the "industry" publicly tells the non-commercial beekeepers will work seem to be working for the part of the industry that is talking to Dan Rather....what has been working is something other than what the industry has been willing to admit they were using.
    It would be like someone telling the media that their financial success came from the stock market, when in fact they were selling crack to make their money. The take home message would be, "work hard and trust the market and you will come out ahead", when the real message is, "sell crack and don't get caught....and definitely don't admit it."

    Even if they are incorrect about the reason for their difficulties, surely there is some value in letting the public know that these difficulties exist.
    Not if the message is to take action that won't solve the problem....diverting attention from things that actually are causing problems.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  12. #52
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    OK well some of this is speculation leading to more speculation. As I've been a party to a little of this direction of the discussion I want to disassociate myself from some of the last few posts, to law abiding beeks this could be pretty offensive.

    When varroa arrived in my country 13 years ago, the government looked at what was being done in other countries, and discovered mite resistance was occurring because the governments would sometimes allow only a narrow range of treatments, meaning they got use over & over, till they didn't work. Other treatment types that were not available, could only be used illegally in a form not designed for bees, also leading to resistance. So what happened here as a matter of deliberate policy, was a wide range of treatment types were approved for use, allowing rotation and less over exposure. In the main this has worked, although one area of the country now has Apistan resistant mites, because of a group of beekeepers there who used Apistan only, twice a year, every year, till it didn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joel_T View Post
    Why wait, might be boring then. I've no desire to use any treatment, but if push comes to shove, I'd like to understand the lesser (?) of the many evils. Is it safe?
    Is it safe? No poison is safe. However the beauty of Amitraz compared to other synthetic strip miticides, is it is non residual. Once it gets out of the strip & into the hive, it is chemically unstable and has a 1/2 life of only a few days before it breaks down. So it does not leave a permanent residue of insecticide in the wax like say, Apistan. Or more correctly, it leaves the break down product, but that is a non issue as far as any potential negative effect.

    So, in an ideal world, we don't treat. But if we have to treat, in my opinion Apivar (Amitraz, and not to be confused with Api Life Var), is a fairly friendly option. There is pretty much no method of mite treatment though, that does not have some side effect. Amitraz has in an experiment, appeared to shorten bees memories. Not that I've ever seen a noticeable effect on the performance of a hive.

    Yes closer to the time I'll do a thread on it in the diseases section.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #53
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Amitraz has in an experiment, appeared to shorten bees memories. Yes closer to the time I'll do a thread on it in the diseases section.
    Well, I suppose a balanced relationship is Ok. They'll forget me about the same time I forget them

    In the meantime....looking forward to your thread.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I didn't notice that there was a lack of coverage on the bee die offs.deknow
    I certainly hope there's plenty of coverage. Just today, in that well-known bastion of yellow journalism, NPR's Science Friday, they were discussing the bee die-offs. I don't see how this is a terrible problem.

    It seemed to me that the main value of the Rather piece was to put human faces on those who are in trouble.



    Y
    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ou are missing the point. Why are these beekeepers being paid $200/hive for 2 weeks of pollination? Here is a hint....you are likely to get paid to go somewhere and to do something that you wouldn't want to do otherwise....if the job is in a dangerous war zone, the pay is likely pretty good. So far, no one has offered to pay me to go to Disneyland. What paradise do beekeepers who send their bees to the almonds expect?deknow
    So... it's the beekeepers' fault? They should just stay home and try to make a living competing with Chinese honey? I guess the almond growers could import 747s full of Chinese bees.


    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Not if the message is to take action that won't solve the problem....diverting attention from things that actually are causing problems.

    deknow
    I wish I could believe that any action was being taken, or recommended. I thought the sad little message of the piece was that no one was willing to do anything other than catch flak for the pesticide industry.

    Am I understanding you correctly that you think a better story would be that the beekeepers are doing it to themselves? That might be true. I've been researching neonicotinoids, and there are treatment free beekeepers in the middle of corn country who are doing fine. That story, however might be a harder sell. But it could be coming. Outliers in a disaster are always interesting to journalists, and at some point they may discover this stuff.

    When I read The Beekeeper's Lament, about migratory beekeeper John Miller, I was astonished to see that the journalist who wrote it had no idea that it was even possible to keep bees alive without treatment.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    I think its rather ironic that not a single beekeeper from the U.S. posting on Beesource seems to know anything about Amitraz. Speculation, perhaps...but it simply isn't believable that no one knows anything.

    From: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_heal...vey_Report.pdf

    Thymol and 2, 4 Dimethylphenyl (a metabolite of Amitraz), both detected in 27.3% of
    the samples...
    ...metabolite of Amitraz found in almost 30% of hives tested? ...in 2011 when the use of Amitraz was illegal?
    ...at an average of 100ppb levels?
    Alabama, California, Colorado,
    Florida, Idaho, Indiana, New York, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas and Wisconsin.
    We received 99 samples from these states
    ...this was pollen collected from brood comb (not trapped pollen).
    If we extrapolate this data to show the prevelence of things stuffed into the hive by the beekeeper, we see Fluvalinate, Coumaphos as the most prevelent, and thymol and Amitraz tying for third. Of the 4 of these, one wasn't legal to use in any form in beehives in the U.S. in 2011.
    As I said before, Amitraz was in short supply this past year....I've heard rumors that some commercials couldn't get the stuff, and it was their treatment of choice.
    Of course this isn't every commercial or every migratory commercial....but I don't believe for a moment that the commercial beekeepers on this list don't know about it.
    Let's hear some details.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  16. #56
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    How residual is Thymol in a hive Dean?

    I used it for the first ever time this year and have been wondering.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #57
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Mark, the contention I posted above is the opposite of what I've said here and on the other thread. When I tried to bring up the offlabel use (especially of Amiztraz), no one (including you) was willing to address itl
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...311#post914311

    ...never answered, never commented on.

    deknow
    Thank you. I knew, since you wrote so here, that you had written something along those lines. I used the Amitraz strips when they came out in 1990, or whenever they came out. Miticure was their name, if I recall correctly.

    As far as addressing offlabel use, what would you have me say? I have already written that beekeepers want to be treated the same as other farmers.
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  18. #58
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    How residual is Thymol in a hive Dean?

    I used it for the first ever time this year and have been wondering.
    I don't know...I know one commercial treatment free beekeeper that loaned some supers to a "natural" beekeeper. Supers came back stinking of thymol. I don't assume treatment was applied properly (when supers are not on the hive) or appropriately (an appropriate amount of thymol).

    Bill Petch told us that as a bookbinder, the paste from the gluepot would always turn moldy. Every bookbinder has a tin of thymol crystals next to the glue pot. A single crystal dropped in the pot (with tweezers), would stink up the room (well, probably a better stink than the glue pot without the thymol), and the paste would never mold.

    I've never used it.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  19. #59
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    You are missing the point. Why are these beekeepers being paid $200/hive for 2 weeks of pollination? Here is a hint....you are likely to get paid to go somewhere and to do something that you wouldn't want to do otherwise....if the job is in a dangerous war zone, the pay is likely pretty good. So far, no one has offered to pay me to go to Disneyland. What paradise do beekeepers who send their bees to the almonds expect?

    deknow
    Dean,
    Do you know any beekeepers who take or send bees to almonds in CA? Have you talked to them?

    I can't say that I know what they expect, other than to get paid for good strong colonies. I know what some of them find when they get their bees back. One friend who sent 5 loads to CA has all of his hives back and is making splits from them. Some of which have enuf bees and brood to take two nucs out of and leave a colony which will be ready for apples in NY or Blueberrys in ME. That's a guy, actually three guys, here in SC.

    Another person I am "FRIEND"s w/ on Facebook is from WA and he is finding them in similar good shape.

    This is not uncommon from what I have heard and seen over the past 5 or 6 years, so, whether they expect this sort of outcome or not, they prepare to take advantage of this sort of result.

    But, maybe you were thinking of something else?
    Mark Berninghausen
    Squeak Creek Apiaries



  20. #60
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    Default Re: 'buzzkill' - dan rather reports on bee deaths among the almonds

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    As far as addressing offlabel use, what would you have me say?
    Anything would suffice. After all the demands made of me in the other thread (the finances, medical history, and numbers of all treatment free commercial beekeepers), and the general consensus that what conventional commercial beekeepers do is an open book (as opposed to the secretive world of treatment free beekeepers who won't post on beesource), I think you could talk about what you hear/see people doing without naming names.
    You certainly don't have to...that's your business.

    I have already written that beekeepers want to be treated the same as other farmers.
    ...required to follow label requirements?

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

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