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New beekeeper interested in chemical free treatment

23K views 97 replies 35 participants last post by  Futhark Farm 
#1 ·
Hello all,
I'm doing some research before my very first package of bees gets here in late April. I'd like to be able to treat them without pesticide-type chemicals, but I need advice and suggestions on how to do that.
For my purposes, I'd say the definition of "chemical free" would just be "if I can put it in my mouth without getting sick, I'm ok with putting it on my hive." Essential oils are fine, fogging with FGMO is fine, sugar dusting is fine. I just want to know if: 1) Have those of you who use/have used these treatments found them effective? 2) Does anyone have any other suggestions for "chemical free" treatments?
Thanks!
 
#45 ·
Sometimes they come with the package/nuc. Sometimes they travel from nearby hives that have them. Sometimes you spread them yourself by adding a frame of brood to a hive that needs it. Or if they rob out a hive dying from mites. There are lots of ways.

As to how likely you'll have them or get them, well, much depends on your own area of the country. Do beeks around you have them?

HTH

Rusty
 
#46 ·
I would like to add to the discussion about treating kids or dogs vs bees... If my daughter has head lice, I have many choices... I can go to the Dr. and get perscription bug killer, go to the store and buy over the counter bug killer, go under my kitchen sink and use vinegar, cover her head with baby oil, or use a fine toothed comb and tweezers after her bath and pick all those little suckers out myself (while this may seem teadious and time consuming, I would rather not dump a buch of pesticides on my childs head so any of the non-chemical routes would be my first choice everytime!). I do not use pesticide flea drops or chemical shampoos on my dog for fleas and ticks, I use all natural non-chemical shampoos infused with clove and cedar oil, it works wonders and my dog smells terrific!! that being said, I believe that Berzee asked for the same kind of thing.... Is ther infact some naturallly occuring thing that these mites can't stand to be around, that won't hurt the bees, much like cedar bark for fleas? does anyone know? if not... then I say it's time we find out!! :)
 
#51 ·
... Is ther infact some naturallly occuring thing that these mites can't stand to be around, that won't hurt the bees, much like cedar bark for fleas? does anyone know? if not... then I say it's time we find out!! :)
I think thyme and its oil is most close to "natural" treatment. Also, I heard that mint candy used to mitigate mites in old days. I have a lot of thyme in my garden and bees love it. May be, it is a part of unintentional treatment for my bees?
 
#48 ·
Varroa mites do not survive outside of hives. If your hive is truly isolated from other honeybees by 10 miles or more, and you could somehow purchase bees with zero mites, you might be able to keep a mite-free hive. Unfortunately all package bees and nucs in the US will have some mites, and even with a brood break there will be survivors.

It would be an interesting experiment to take a package of bees, treat them several times with oxalic acid vapor to (hopefully) kill 100% of the mites, install them in an isolated location, and see if they would remain mite-free. It might just be possible...
 
#53 ·
I really think it would be a hard roe to hoe to start bee keeping and be TF. Doesn't mean it couldn't be done. Would recommend a mentor of some sort and a stock of bees that the odds are in their favor of surviving TF. IMHO, a big key to success, is determination to do it,,,,accept the fact that you may/will loose some hives,,,you may have to start over,,,,and that it is NOT failure if that happens. This is what has worked for me. This is my fifth season TF. Relatively new compared to some. Some may not agree but IMO, when the bar is set higher the rewards are more satisfying. I'm not anti treatment,,,,it is just not for me.
Rick
 
#54 ·
to RHALDRIGE...Hello and good evening...I live in upstate NY in the Catskills and tried beekeeping the first time last year and lost my hive to varroa in the Fall; I has purchased a NUC from a successful beekeeper about 2 hours north of me...I am starting again in a month with 2 packages from Texas and a NUC from a local beekeeper....I am curious as to why you want to have hives up here if you live in Florida and can I ask who you purchased your bee's from in NY? Thanks.
 
#59 ·
I'm a native New Yorker; the North Country still feels like home to me. Our children are raised, and last summer we bought a few acres along the edge of the Adirondacks, and hope to have a cabin there. I'm going up to do some site development this spring, and the area seems very well suited to bees, so I'd like to get started.

I'm getting my nucs from Joel Klose at Nature's Way Farm in the Finger Lakes.
 
#55 ·
Wow, hot topic and can't read them all! But I am treatment free so far and waiting for the big 'fall' others tell me should come -- maybe next year I guess since it did not come this year. I am part of a group that promotes survival stock hence, in the fall if we have weak hives we requeen and/or combine them; do not treat or feed and propogate only the once who are strong survivors. This is going back to the basic passing on the stronger genetics and traits that allow the hive to survive. Some of the ways they survive: by going into a natural dearth 2x a year and breaking the brood cycle which breaks the mite breeding cycle, shrinking, expanding and allowing the bees to MOVE up and down the hive (no queen excluders), allow them to create their own comb how they see fit and like I said, proprogating the strong hives, getting rid of the weaklings. I know "I" feel better about eating my honey and raising bees that are strong in my climate and surviving all the artificial problems we've made or imported for them. And I did not learn this stuff from no where...we have many good, successful beekeepers here on the left coast that are doing and passing on the same exact thing. Good luck to you!
 
#56 ·
This is my 2nd year beeking and I only used sugar as my only supplement last year. I would suggest if you get a package of southern bees you get a northern Queen. Or try finding a over wintered nuc in OH.
1) you get drawn comb for pollen storage already
2) they survived winter up north.

This year more will likely they'll begin swarming as they spent last year drawing comb in their double deeps.
 
#57 ·
Wow, I really didn't expect this many replies! Thanks for the advice everyone.
I have quite a lot to research now: IPM, beehive companion planting, etc. There's always more to learn! :)
For now, I think, I'll go with what was said by Luterra and Lburou (and possibly some others?) and do what it takes to keep my one hive alive while drawing a line at synthetic pesticides.
 
#61 ·
I have been hearing how difficult it is to go treatment free. I been hearing the horror stories of mass devastation if you don't treat your bees. I am wondering how many years into non-intervention beekeeping that this is suppose to happen.
 
#64 ·
Many thanks, it was not the actual document, but I figured out. The actual document location is there:
http://beeinformed.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Varroa-managment.pdf
Soooo. Very interesting. There is MY summary BASED on data presented in the document:
1). Effect of known treatment is noticeable only in the northern states in US. There is NO difference in southern states.
2). ApiGuard provides statistically proven (to me) evidence of reducing bee-lost by 10%, very impressive.
3). ApiLife - 9%. Formic Acid - 6%. Note: these two are at the border line, practically no effect, but document stated 9% and 6% effect.
4). Coumaphos, Fluvalinate, Sucrocide, herbal products including thymol, garlic powder, menthol, wintergreen, and mint oils,
Powdered Sugar, Mineral Oil, Drone Brood Removal, Screen Bottom Board, Small Cell Size Comb - ALL, NO effect!
 
#65 ·
...Losses down last year, up the year before. Sicker? Who knows?
My point was that treatment was not able to stop the tendency of increasing mites counts over the past 4 years. More mites on the bee - more sick bee (to me). Based on their data, mites counts increased nearly by factor of 2 each year - it is quite alarming. It was 2/100 bees in 2009 and it is 6/100 in 2011.
 
#67 ·
>My point was that treatment was not able to stop the tendency of increasing mites counts over the past 4 years. More mites on the bee - more sick bee (to me). Based on their data, mites counts increased nearly by factor of 2 each year - it is quite alarming.<
Only 39% treat. How's that affect the spin?
 
#68 ·
When I started beekeeping 8 years ago a decided to do it treatment free. All my hives came from swarms that I caught. Last year 25 went into winter and 25 came out of winter and most were very strong. I know it is very possible to have healthy hives without treatments because im doing it and im by no means an expert. I don't know how people think bees cant survive without treatments because my area is loaded with feral colonies. I know of feral colonies that I have watched for over 8 years and their still living.
 
#82 ·
Cool.

We have lots of feral hives in my area also and I have built our apiaries up the exact same way. (hard drought here though and my overwintering losses this year are going to be close to 25%).


Libhart:
Re: Loaction, location, location

Joe Waggle keeps feral caught treatment free bees in your neck of the woods.


Don
 
#70 ·
Deepsouth,

That's really cool, but not all areas are created equally. In fact they're extremely different. Yes, other beekeepers in your area can probably do it and be successful as well, but because you can do it where you are doesn't mean that the entire country can be treatment free. It's the real estate mantra...location, location, location.
 
#75 ·
To the OP, look for threads by StevenG from S.E. Mo. I have spoken with him in person twice, and found him to be logical and intelligent, with a supporting understanding of the ways of the bees.I would read his posts, and then contact him.

We do not use any chemicals to combat mites, and are a small commercial outfit. It can be done, but requires a much higher level of beekeeping skills. As for the bees adapting to the mites, don't hold your breath. I believe it is quicker to breed a weaker mite than to breed a stronger bee.

Crazy Roland
 
#78 ·
I believe it is quicker to breed a weaker mite than to breed a stronger bee.

Crazy Roland
Either one would be an improvement, I guess. Folks who treat can forget about breeding weaker mites...

Isn't there a theory among some evolutionary biologists that pests like varroa, if left to work things out, tend to develop less virulence? I believe the thinking is that a parasite that is too rough on its host species thereby reduces its opportunities to reproduce, and a parasite that allows its host to survive will have better longterm reproductive prospects than the one that kills its host quickly.
 
#76 ·
Really difficult to draw meaningful conclusions from these data. 39% of beekeepers treated but 86% of hives were treated. Beekeepers that treat managed an average of 142 colonies; non-treating beekeepers managed an average of 15.

So...beekeepers that don't treat are mostly hobbyists; most commercials and sideliners treat (with a fair number of hobbyists in that group as well bringing the average down).

We have some confounding factors. Commercial hives might be expected to have lower losses due to more experienced management; on the other hand they might have higher losses due to the stresses of migratory operations. Are we seeing a difference due to management style or due to treatment?

Also, the act of treating for mites does not guarantee low mite counts going into winter. For various reasons treatments are often ineffective, with follow-up treatments required. Whole-country surveys can't really be used to prove whether mite treatments improve winter survival.

What proportion of colonies with 20% mite infestation (20 mites/100 bees) in fall survive winter?
What proportion of colonies with 5% infestation survive?
What proportion of colonies with 1% infestation survive?
I don't have the answers in front of me, but there are some data out there.

If a colony with 20% infestation has a 70% chance of dying over winter, and a colony with 1% infestation has a 20% chance of dying, and I can kill 95% of mites (from 20% to 1%) with a series of treatments, should I treat?

The answer to that depends on my beekeeping philosophy. Is it more important to preserve my investment for more honey next year, or is it more important to improve the long-term health of my bees by culling (or letting nature cull) mite-susceptible colonies?

My personal philosophy is to keep bees alive but not to propagate bad genetics. For example I will treat a hive with high mite loads going into winter but will try to requeen it with more resistant stock in spring.
 
#80 ·
Really difficult to draw meaningful conclusions from these data. 39% of beekeepers treated but 86% of hives were treated. Beekeepers that treat managed an average of 142 colonies; non-treating beekeepers managed an average of 15.

So...beekeepers that don't treat are mostly hobbyists; most commercials and sideliners treat (with a fair number of hobbyists in that group as well bringing the average down).
Well, there you go. We backyard beekeepers, regardless of treating or not, are unlikely to have much effect overall. So I would not automatically assume the OP needs a lecture, but tell him to do whatever makes sense to him.
 
#83 ·
Oh I wish it was that simple :pinch:

PA's a big state with lots of different regions. Mr. Waggle is over in Westmoreland Co. Did a little looking....17% agriculture, 50% forested, whole county is about 645K acres. Lancaster Co., which produces the most agriculture of any non-irrigated county in the entire country, is 67% agriculture, whole county is about 629K acres.
 
#86 ·
In fact, every beekeeper and prospective beekeeper should be studying this survey, because many of the practices that are recommended turn out to have insignificant effects on the survival of colonies. Terramycin? Doesn't help. Feeding protein supplements? Doesn't help, Feeding carbohydrates? Doesn't help. Thymol, screened bottom boards, drone removal? Don't help.
That's a valid conclusion only for prophylactic treatments like fumagilin and terramycin. I'm not convinced they do much good, and the survey bears that out. As for "reactive" treatments like protein patties, syrup feeding, and mite treatments (assuming the beekeeper is treating based on counts rather than prophylactically), "no difference" is to be expected even if the treatments are 100% essential. Carbohydrates (sugar syrup) are fed to light hives in fall until they have adequate winter stores. Presumably those who didn't feed left enough honey for the bees. No difference observed, but I'm sure the light hives would have perished at a much higher rate had they not been fed. Same goes for mites. Most of those not treating have been treatment-free for some time and have adopted mite-resistant genetics and management practices, so losses are not especially high. I'm willing to bet that if all those who reported treating had simply skipped the treatment, their losses would have been in the 50-60% range.

So...we have evidence that treatment-free is becoming a viable alternative to treating in terms of annual losses. But we can't take this as evidence that treatments don't work. Treatments work on bees that need them, just like feeding syrup improves winter survival of hives that are short on stores.

Mark
 
#87 ·
Good points. And history does bear this out; folks who decide to stop treatment often have higher losses than that.

I know of quite a few folks who feed pollen substitute and syrup routinely, not as a response to conditions. Michael Bush has some interesting material on this practice.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm

It would be very interesting to see a comparison of survival rates between those who leave adequate honey (and have a good enough season to do so) and those who have to feed syrup to get hives through the winter. It seems reasonable to assume the former would have better survival rates, but I'd be interested in numbers. There's a saying among some beekeepers that syrup is cheaper than honey, which I think can sometimes lead to taking too much honey and trying to get bees through the winter on fall-fed syrup. In general, I think it's safe to say that treatment free beekeepers are less likely to do this, as natural feeds are a part of the philosophy.

I know some Bond beekeepers refuse to feed, on the theory that having enough stores to overwinter in a particular location is a trait that can be selected for. I'm not that dedicated; I would feed rather than let a hive die because the conditions were so bad that even a great hive wouldn't have enough to get by.
 
#92 ·
I remember years ago, my grandfather used to melt menthol cough drops and mix them into sugar syrup and candy boards. That worked for quite awhile just fine until the CCD started really happening and we had to amp up the medication. We didn't do much more than just the menthol at the time (also used some terramycin), and it worked. So I'd say it's worth giving a shot at least. Not that cough drops are necessarily "Natural" but I'm following the "Can put it in my mouth" guidelines.
 
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