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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    When I get back from GA in May I will check a bunch of mine for comparison and post the results. May be I will take the scale with me and do a pre-trip and post trip just to see what the differences are.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    ll take the scale with me and do a pre-trip and post trip
    That would be interesting.
    Go to Heaven for the climate, go to Hell for the company. -Mark Twain

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    These package bee outfits can give you 3 lbs. of bees if they want to, its not rocket science. The bottom line is some are honest and some are not. They know most people won't weigh everything out to see if they got their money's worth so they don't sweat it, who can tell the difference between 2 1/2 and 3 lbs. by looking at the bees in the cage. Really, the package bee producers should put in a little extra for die off, but I'm sure some don't look at it that way. This is just another reason why I won't be buying package bees if I can possibly help it. John

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Any creature, including bees and humans, converts food [energy] into muscle movement, and consumes a portion of that food.
    This is precisely why they should gain in weight. They are eating and not doing anything else.

    However, I would rather get 2.5 pounds of young bees then 4 pounds of old bees just about to kick. What the bee industry should have is a survival rate for each bee supplier where they have to keep records on packages sold vs. packages surviving one year. The higher the rating they achieve the higher price they can demand. Then the consumer can decide if they want to shop at Walmart or Sacs 5th ave.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  5. #25
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    bridgewater , nova scotia
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    What is the difference between # 3 Packages and 3 pound packages ? Is it a standard size box with a certain critical mass VS weight of bees ?
    Ben Little <The Little Bee Farm> https://www.facebook.com/TheLittleBeeFarm
    Nova Scotia Canada

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    It great to see that someone has finally made a thoughtful post in this thread! Way to go, Ace.
    Graham
    -- The real problem is not precise language, it's clear language. - Richard Feynman

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    It's my understanding a No.3 package is just a vague way not to guarantee a weight.
    Go to Heaven for the climate, go to Hell for the company. -Mark Twain

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Little View Post
    What is the difference between # 3 Packages and 3 pound packages ?
    From my understanding, a 3# package is just that, at least 3 lbs of bees. A #3 package is a product that they provide, to be distinguished from a #2 package or a #4 package. A #3 package will have more bees in it than a #2 package, but less than a #4 package. It is not a measurement of weight.

    In the end, the supplier can take an $85 3 lb. package (which used to contain more than 3 lbs. in most operations), trim it down to 2.5 lbs. of bees, call it a "#3" instead of a "3#", hope the customers get confused (because you aren't explaining to anyone what you are doing), continue to charge $85 for it, and pocket the roughly $12 gain that you make on each package, at the expense of the buyer.

    $85 package, including $20 queen = $65 bees
    $21.66 per lb., or $10.83 per 1/2 lb.

    Then, roll all the missed half pounds into extra packages and cover the bee shortage you had. By reducing the amount of bees in a package by 1/2 lb., for every six packages you make up you've "found" another package.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    I am not sure that they are doing "nothing but eating". The majority of bees in the package can't get anywhere near the syrup can. Usually there are only 2-4 holes in the can so a relatively few numbers of bees are feeding and passing syrup off to everybody else. Or they are constantly switching places in the cluster... Either way; they are consuming energy. So a loss in weight isn't necessarily out of the question.

    Anybody who has transported a large number of packages knows that they expel a rather large amount of moisture... which also means a loss of weight. In the 20 or so hrs it takes me to get a load of packages back to New England I go through about 30-40 gallons of water that I give them to drink. Large package haulers have sprinklers set up in their trailers for the same purpose. So if the dealer didn't water the packages in transit a loss in weight is unquestionable because they are alive and breathing.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    It simple really, they bigger guys on the east coast sell more by volume than weight. Actually its fairer way to handle bees and its faster which helps keep the price down.
    Despite some claims that package guys are trying to scam you ( lots of peolpe think someone is out to get them) Every one of the guys is trying to give you good queens and a package that will grow.... these guys bust there buts to do this work. what ahppens in the field is that the "box" is quicly shaken level to see if there are enough bees in it. the big east coast guys are shakein 800-1000 a day. Weighing each one individualy would add to the cost. and in the end would not give you any thing more.
    And NO they will not gain weight becase they are sedentary. HFCS is mostly water and water weight is evaperated by heat. and bees are exothermic.... simple science........

    Its not a vauge conspiricy. its a attempt to get the some customers to get real. In any business there customers you would just rather not have........

    Blue grass, I have done that, but feel free to do it again... but try something I didn't. feed the bees with a good mist 2 times a day, and see what the loss is. I did that this trip and my death losses totaly vanished for a 6 day hold......
    Typicaly weight loss as been about 3% per 24 hour period. The first 48 being heavier, and then slowing down for 4-5 days then accelerating slightly. I only did the test for 7 days and then let them out. the pain was I had to remove the syrup every day to see the actaul "bee loss"

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    The majority of bees in the package can't get anywhere near the syrup can. Usually there are only 2-4 holes in the can so a relatively few numbers of bees are feeding and passing syrup off to everybody else.
    That sounds like a major flaw in the design of the feeding apparatus if there is any truth to this. Your alive and breathing. If you sat around Dunken Donuts all day and ate gelly donuts and coffee how thin do you think you would get?

    It is my understanding that migratory beekeepers knock the hives down to one or two boxes literally crammed with bees and no room for food. They are on a starvation diet for the trip.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    And NO they will not gain weight becase they are sedentary. HFCS is mostly water and water weight is evaperated by heat. and bees are exothermic.... simple science........
    Your right it is science. Are you running 3 pounds of bees in each deep going to almonds? How much feed are you giving them? They are covered right? These bees are not sedentary. They are busting their hump fanning trying to keep cool. That is not the same thing as a 3 pound package by itself going through the postal service. Check the science out.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  13. #33
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Gee Ace, are you having a hard time reading this morning?

    Gmcharlie is talking about bees in a package! You know, that small screened box that package bees are sold in .... Or maybe you have no actual experience with a package, didn't all your purchased bees come from nucs? Almonds??

    From another thread this morning where Ace is distributing his wisdom ....
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    A person posts a serious topic and in comes the high school Harry's..
    What about the high school Brian's?

    What does Dunkin Donuts have to do with whether bees in a package box gain weight in transit or not?

    In one post you claim the package bees are gaining weight because they are sedentary, then you later claim they are starving in that package! Which is it?



    (no offense intended to other Beesource members who may also be named Brian, or Harry)
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 03-30-2013 at 08:33 AM.
    Graham
    -- The real problem is not precise language, it's clear language. - Richard Feynman

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Despite some claims that package guys are trying to scam you ( lots of peolpe think someone is out to get them) Every one of the guys is trying to give you good queens and a package that will grow.... these guys bust there buts to do this work.
    No doubt gm. I don't think anyone in this thread has been calling into question the quality of the queens or bees you get in a package. We are only questioning the volume. At least, I am. Don't confuse a discussion about "quantity" with a discussion about "quality."

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    what ahppens in the field is that the "box" is quicly shaken level to see if there are enough bees in it. the big east coast guys are shakein 800-1000 a day. Weighing each one individualy would add to the cost. and in the end would not give you any thing more.
    I'm going to have to disagree with you here gm. If 20 years ago package suppliers weighed a package, or filled it up to a "line" in a box, and that line represented 3.5 lbs of bees, and they continued to do it today, there are no added costs. By doing that, the customer should be purchasing the same thing they did 20 years ago. Some are. Some are not. Now, they either weigh it at a lesser amount, or fill it up to a lower line.

    Packages 20 years ago (From what I hear, I wasn't keeping then) were 3 lbs. Now some are some are not. So there is nothing about "added costs". It's about changing the volume of what you are selling, but keeping the price. What did a package cost 20 years ago? What does it cost now? I know Mike Palmer showed it in his video, but I don't remember the numbers. Based on my memory, it increased greater than inflation or the consumer price index (although not as much as some other items, such as gas or college tuition). To keep, and increase, the prices of packages, while DECREASING the volume of bees in the package, is something that should be made clear to the consumer to help them make their decision (as it should be a part of a multi prong formula, including survival of the package, customer service, ect).

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    And the 3# or #3 thing does seem intentional. Caveat emptor.
    Go to Heaven for the climate, go to Hell for the company. -Mark Twain

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    What good does it do to lower the volume of bees in the package and keep the price the same and still call it a certain pound package? I know I have received package bees in the past that were definitely not all the same volume of bees, anyone could tell the difference, and yes, I am including the dead bees on the bottom. If they are not using a scale on each and every package, they should be, enough of this guessing, with the price of these things you should be getting your money's worth period. John

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    In one post you claim the package bees are gaining weight because they are sedentary,
    I didn't claim anything. I pointed out where your feeding concept is wrong.

    If 20 years ago package suppliers weighed a package, or filled it up to a "line" in a box, and that line represented 3.5 lbs of bees, and they continued to do it today, there are no added costs.
    Unfortunately that happens a lot today in every commodity. It is the deceitful way of marketing. They will be rewarded handsomely if they can sell a perception rather then the actual product.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    If they are not using a scale on each and every package, they should be, enough of this guessing, with the price of these things you should be getting your money's worth period. John
    Do you think that every individual jar of honey is weighed? That would be absorbing a lot of costs.
    You justify expensive metering equipment to control the overages not the underages.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialkayme View Post

    Packages 20 years ago (From what I hear, I wasn't keeping then) were 3 lbs. Now some are some are not. So there is nothing about "added costs". It's about changing the volume of what you are selling, but keeping the price. What did a package cost 20 years ago? What does it cost now? I know Mike Palmer showed it in his video, but I don't remember the numbers. Based on my memory, it increased greater than inflation or the consumer price index (although not as much as some other items, such as gas or college tuition). To keep, and increase, the prices of packages, while DECREASING the volume of bees in the package, is something that should be made clear to the consumer to help them make their decision (as it should be a part of a multi prong formula, including survival of the package, customer service, ect).
    Actually packages 20 years ago were all 2 lb packs... The three lb pack is a newer standard.
    As far as cost goes. I bought my first hive from Sears and Roebuck around 1989-1990. It cost me $65.00 and was a complete hive, bottom board, two brood, two supers, all the frames and foundation, inner and tele cover and the package of bees.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  20. #40
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    FRASER VALLEY, BRITISH COLUMBIA
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    Default Re: Actual weight of 3 lb. package

    Wow, that was inexpensive. Could not have been any margin for anybody at that price.

    Jean-Marc

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