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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,350

    Default Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    I've been using 8-frame sized supers for quite awhile now. Thanks to the idea and inspiration from Michael Bush. However, most recently I've decided that all my new gear, and going forward, will be 14" wide, and with 12-1/2" inner width. I've also configured many of my brood supers, with side-wall inner racks. Even with the racks, a 12-1/2" wide 8-frame super, will accommodate 9 frames, 1-1/4" wide. And the same super, if used without the side-wall slatted racks, will accommodate, ten, 1-1/4" wide frames, hence it is then a 10-frame super.

    Can we really still consider these, narrower supers, to be 8-frame supers? It being a combination of the internal dimensions of the supers and the width of the frames, that actually determines how many frames each super can hold. Now, if I were to squeeze ten, 1-1/4" wide frames into 12-1/2" space, there is not going to be the tiniest bit of wiggle room, so that many narrow gauge frames seems quite impractical, but nine frames would fit very well. I find that nine narrow gauge frames fit quite well, even with the slatted side-wall racks. So, even though I call them 8-frame supers, I'm actually using them, regularly, as 9-frame supers.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    4,887

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Is up really down? Is it tomato or tomaato? Did the chicken really cross the road? Do pigs fly? Is there really a God? How did Moses walk on the water? How did Noah fit all those animals in the ark? Were dinosaurs included?
    Is small cell a valid theory? Is EFB in comb contagious? What is the true definition of CCD? Are commercial beekeepers the cause of the die off? Does Roland really have a cure for CCD? Are Michael Bush's bees really immune to mites? Why did Solomon Parkers small cell bees die? Is Acebird always right? Is odfrank a troll?

    Life is full of those unanswered questions.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA
    Posts
    1,693

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Wow Ollie, you sound confused...actually I'll be quiet.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Solano, California, USA
    Posts
    1,357

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Is odfrank a troll?

    Life is full of truths beyond belief.
    Edited for effect...

    Yep!!!! Least we know one of them was correct. All those Dadant jumbos must have slid off your back and onto your head while doing handstands and cartwheels down El Camino Real while rejoicing about coming back home from that yard with all that euc honey.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,093

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    I concur w/ odfrank. It really must be the deep of winter that brings out such questions.

    The term "8 frame super" is based on the use of normal sized frames. If u make youir frames narrow enough you could stuff 10 frames in an 8 frame box. What's the point?

    You can call your super whatever you want to, if you put 9 frames in an 8 frame size box, what does it matter?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,131

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    There are a lot of contradictions in terms... a ten frame box is often used with 9 frames in it in a super. A lot of people shave the frames down and put 11 frames in it. We have to call it something and ten frame is the name it got 150 years go. Eight frame boxes are a little less standard, but all of them I've ever seen are either 14" or 13 3/4" or something between those, so that is 13 7/8 +- 1/8". True, I have 9 in all my brood boxes, and 7 in all my supers, so are they 7 frame boxes or 9 frame boxes?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,093

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    So they are not 8 frame boxes at all, but 14" boxes. I guess we need to change the whole system and start calling everything by their dimensions.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    4,076

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Expressed in cubits.
    Since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Pleasant Shade, TN
    Posts
    444

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    Expressed in cubits.
    Barley corns for that matter.

    Sounds like a question for........ Guy Noir, Private Eye!
    A man is worth just as much as the things about which he busies himself- Marcus Aurelius

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Park City Ky
    Posts
    1,838

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Is odfrank a troll?.
    NO, Just od.

    cchoganjr

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gonzales, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    171

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Is up really down? Is it tomato or tomaato? Did the chicken really cross the road? Do pigs fly? Is there really a God? How did Moses walk on the water? How did Noah fit all those animals in the ark? Were dinosaurs included?
    Is small cell a valid theory? Is EFB in comb contagious? What is the true definition of CCD? Are commercial beekeepers the cause of the die off? Does Roland really have a cure for CCD? Are Michael Bush's bees really immune to mites? Why did Solomon Parkers small cell bees die? Is Acebird always right? Is odfrank a troll?

    Life is full of those unanswered questions.
    OK....It's been a while since my catholic school days....But didn't Jesus walk on the water, and Moses part the Red Sea?


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    carney, maryland, USA
    Posts
    575

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    Expressed in cubits.
    My boxes are 2/3 cubit wide. They hold 7 normal frames, but 8 (1-1/4 wide) frames.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gainesboro, Tennessee, USA.
    Posts
    398

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Wow. I must admit I hate the extra space in a 8 frame standard box

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,093

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Stuff a frame in there KR.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,350

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Reynolds View Post
    Wow. I must admit I hate the extra space in a 8 frame standard box
    I'm assuming that your 8-frame boxes are 12-1/4" wide (interior dimensions), 13-3/4" wide (outside dimensions). So, eight, 1-3/8" wide frames - totals 11", leaving you with 1-1/4" (just enough space to tightly squeeze in one narrow (1-1/4" wide frame). But if you replaced a few of the wider frames with narrow frames, you could more easily fit nine frames, total, with room to spare. Most of my hive's brood nests are composed of mixtures of various width frames, some 1-3/8" and some 1-1/4" frames. It works quite well.

    My optimal configuration (that I strive for, but rarely seem to achieve), is all 1-1/4" width frames and 12-1/2" wide (inner dimension) boxes. So, nine 1-1/4" frames = 11-1/4", leaving 1-1/4". Enough space to tightly cram a tenth narrow gauge frame. It is a good configuration, since my homemade frames have End Bars with parallel sides, prying one out, those style End Bars reduce rolling of bees, since bee space is neatly preserved during the frame removal process. Some bees, will likely be rolled, but if done slowly and carefully -- that dangerous trauma can be kept to a minimum.

    The outer comb surfaces will likely be used minimally, since bee space there is less than ideal. So the equivalent of nine frames, completely utilized, vs ten, or more in a typical 10-frame super.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-31-2014 at 08:10 PM.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Oak Harbor, WA
    Posts
    303

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Reynolds View Post
    Wow. I must admit I hate the extra space in a 8 frame standard box
    Me too!!!

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gainesboro, Tennessee, USA.
    Posts
    398

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Mark I am trying to stuff it in there but it looks like a 10 frame wanna bee then.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    4,887

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Reynolds View Post
    Wow. I must admit I hate the extra space in a 8 frame standard box
    Follower Boards is one solution.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,093

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Reynolds View Post
    Wow. I must admit I hate the extra space in a 8 frame standard box
    Why?
    Did you build them too large?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Kinder, Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    172

    Default Re: Is an eight frame really an eight frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Clemens View Post
    I've been using 8-frame sized supers for quite awhile now. Thanks to the idea and inspiration from Michael Bush. However, most recently I've decided that all my new gear, and going forward, will be 14" wide, and with 12-1/2" inner width. I've also configured many of my brood supers, with side-wall inner racks. Even with the racks, a 12-1/2" wide 8-frame super, will accommodate 9 frames, 1-1/4" wide. And the same super, if used without the side-wall slatted racks, will accommodate, ten, 1-1/4" wide frames, hence it is then a 10-frame super.

    Can we really still consider these, narrower supers, to be 8-frame supers? It being a combination of the internal dimensions of the supers and the width of the frames, that actually determines how many frames each super can hold. Now, if I were to squeeze ten, 1-1/4" wide frames into 12-1/2" space, there is not going to be the tiniest bit of wiggle room, so that many narrow gauge frames seems quite impractical, but nine frames would fit very well. I find that nine narrow gauge frames fit quite well, even with the slatted side-wall racks. So, even though I call them 8-frame supers, I'm actually using them, regularly, as 9-frame supers.
    May I ask why you bothered going to 8-frame boxes to begin with?

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