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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    >It is not that the EPA doesn't have scientist or highly educated people

    And a lot of them came there directly from Monsanto...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    >High concentrations of neonicotinoids in corn (as well as other moncrops) do not bother me

    You do realize that you are eating those neonics don't you?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    You do realize that you are eating those neonics don't you?
    Not me.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  4. #104
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    Knox Co, Ohio, USA
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >It is not that the EPA doesn't have scientist or highly educated people

    And a lot of them came there directly from Monsanto...
    Michael,

    Do you know how many or what percentage of EPA scientists are former Monsanto employees?

    Tom

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    >Do you know how many or what percentage of EPA scientists are former Monsanto employees?

    I have seen a list. Try this search on google:
    monsanto revolving door list

    You'll get 63,000 results and many lists.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Michael,

    I did a google search as you suggests. The hits I checked had a list of about 20-25 prominent people who worked for both Monsanto and the US government at some points in their careers. It seemed like the majority were lawyers or MBA/management types. It also seemed like most of the activity listed was from the Clinton although, that dates ranged from the early 1980's to the present.

    Not many scientists were listed. However, those in the top spots can steer policy in certain directions if they desire.

    I also did a Bayer revolving door search and didn't find the same results.

    I still don't believe a link has been found between bee colony deaths and neonics. There is also the question what will replace neonics if they are banned?

    Personally, I think the neonics are better than the products used in the past. I also feel that neonics are not the biggest problem facing honey bees today. Given my druthers I would prefer my bees were not exposed to any pesticides or mites!

    Tom

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    There are plenty of bee deaths due to neonics....but of course, they are confirmed pesticide kills (seems that they are mostly obvious pesticide kills), but of course, they are in contrast to "CCD"...a case of suspected "CCD" that shows high levels of neonics in the dead bees piled in front of the hive is not CCD...it is a pesticide kill.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >

    Try this search on google:
    monsanto revolving door list

    You'll get 63,000 results and many lists.
    Yes you will get ~63,000 google hits if you do this. You will also get 3.2 million hits if you google "flying saucers". The number of hits doesnt mean much.

    As a side note, the pay is much higher at Monsanto so the natural migration of jobs would be away from the EPA to Monsanto, not the other way around.
    Last edited by Nabber86; 03-26-2013 at 04:32 PM.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    As a side note, the pay is much higher at Monsanto so the natural migration of jobs would be away from the EPA to Monsanto, not the other way around.
    I am sure it is both ways like it is with the medical industry.
    If you are a regulatory body you want experience people from the industry you are regulating and if you are a manufacturer trying to comply with regulation you want people experienced in regulation. It happens every day everywhere.

    It is not a problem until a company is so large and has so much influence that the end result is no regulation.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    >You will also get 3.2 million hits if you google "flying saucers". The number of hits doesnt mean much.

    But not their names and positions...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  11. #111
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    Vernonia Or
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    Yes you will get ~63,000 google hits if you do this. You will also get 3.2 million hits if you google "flying saucers". The number of hits doesnt mean much.
    That just proves there's more flying saucers than shuffling scientists.


    Quote Originally Posted by TWall View Post
    Not many scientists were listed. However, those in the top spots can steer policy in certain directions if they desire.
    One maliciously influential scientist is too many. I'd just as soon nothing was steered Monsanto's way.

    And talk about a little shuffling influence....Clarance Thomas who coincdently worked as a lawyer for Monsanto for a few years, I understand ruled in favor of a Monsanto appeal that some claim will give them control of among other thing alfalfa. He should have recused himself. They already own soy...what's one more.

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I am sure it is both ways like it is with the medical industry.
    .
    It does work both ways. However, it's all about the money? There is more money to be made in the private sector than working for thhe EPA. I work with all kinds of scientists that went to work for the EPA for a couple of years to get some experience and then go out into the work force as a consultant (we have employed hundreds were I work). Invariably it is because of the money. The same thing works on the State level too; Oklahoma (ODEQ), Missouri (MDNR), Kansas (KDEQ). That's the joke about the revolving door - Every time you get a project manager "trained" to do their job, they leave and you have to start all over again.

    I can only think of a couple of intances were a professional went to a government position. That usually happens when someone gets burned out and wants to sit on their butt in a government job and do nothing until they retire.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  13. #113
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    Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, USA
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    It is not a problem until a company is so large and has so much influence that the end result is no regulation.
    Looks like that is exactly where we are headed: Amendment Would Weaken Biotech Oversight and Agribiz Friendly Rider Inserted into Unrelated Bill

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Quote Originally Posted by VeggieGardener View Post
    Looks like that is exactly where we are headed:
    Oh i think we have been there for awhile.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    And again from Catch the Buzz.

    “This study shows for the first time the effect of field-relevant concentrations (3 ppb) of neonicotinoid pesticides and an organophosphate miticide on honeybee brain function,” Connolly says. “Both prevent information flow in the major learning centre of the honeybee brain.

    “There is clearly a major brain dysfunction in response to these compounds and this is supported by behavioral research from Newcastle University.”

    Connolly says local honeybee losses in Scotland have been two-fold higher in bees reported to forage on oilseed rape, the major exposure risk of the neonicotinoids to bees.

    I think this is the first information I have seen that states that losses are higher when near crops grown with these pesticides. Also note is is a single specific crop so the increase could be due to anything associated with that particular crop.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    If your bees are suffering because of the interaction between what the farmer uses and what the beekeeper uses (coumaphos or coumaphos contaminated foundation from a bee supplier), is it really fair (or even logical) to first blame the farmer without eliminating the contribution to the problem by the beekeeper?

    Deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    interesting daniel, thanks.

    can you provide the link?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    The intact bees’ brains were exposed to pesticides
    We already know that neonics are toxic to honeybees when they are fed pesticide laced syrup. Now we know that neonics are toxic when applied to bees brains.

    Wow that is earth shaking.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  20. #120
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    Nov 2009
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    Belfast, Ireland
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    Default Re: Beekeepers suing EPA

    I would hazard a guess that many if not all insecticides will have some effect on a bee brain.
    I am sure a vast range of natural and synthetic chemicals have an effect on a bee brain.

    Anyone remember the stuff about cocaine and bee brains from a few years ago
    This completely misses the point.
    The issue is whether pesticides cause harm to bees in the field when used according to the label instructions.

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