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  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    2,332

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    I bet Bro Adam didn't have up to 20 hives on a four story rooftop with no elevator either.
    President, San Francisco Beekeepers Association
    www.habitatforhoneybees.org

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Oak Harbor, WA
    Posts
    294

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    I'm new - but decided on 8 frame mediums. For the weight and also to standardize my equipment. I only need one size box and only need one size frames. Everything is the same, no mixing and matching.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,311

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    No matter how old you are, unless you don't plan to live past 40, I'd go with eight frame mediums... but that's me. First I converted to all mediums. Then I converted to all eight frames. I've never regretted it.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie B View Post
    I bet Bro Adam didn't have up to 20 hives on a four story rooftop with no elevator either.
    Nope; worse. He kept hundreds of hives on Dartmoor where they were not accessible by motor vehicle. But Monks tend to embrace physical challenges.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    proctorsville, vermont
    Posts
    151

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    isn't it great theres a size to fit every ones style and needs. myself i will stick with 10 frame deeps.
    thats the way i roll.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Shickshinny, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    807

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Now that I decided on 10 frame med for all my boxes do I install my first package into just one med box for my brood chamber , wondering if there is enough room for all those bees !! and then expect to add another med when things get going .

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    5,639

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Yes, there is plenty of room in one medium for the installation of a new package. Consider that a 10 frame medium is at least twice the volume of the box those package bees were shipped in. Additionally, counting the space occupied by the feeder can of HFCS that is in the package box allows the bees even more space.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    174

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Its primarily down to weight, if you are happy with a 10F full depth go for it. I can lift a 10F FD but I need to be carefull. A 8 F 3/4 size (WSP in Australia ) is much easier to move with limited care.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Stafford, VA
    Posts
    74

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrass View Post
    The down side to 8 frames is that you need 20% more equipment to run the same hives.

    As far as all mediums go; that is the dumbest idea since man first thought that keeping stinging insects was a good idea Combine the two (8 frames and all mediums) and you now need 35% more equipment to run the same hives.

    These are purely my opinion though... having tried both configurations. And Dnichols is correct; it is harder to winter bees on smaller equipment in northern climates.

    I guess that makes me and a lot of other bee keepers pretty stupid.

    Laketrout: I see you're in PA. Your winters there can vary pretty significantly depending on where in the state you are. If you have the more gentile "Virginia" like winters, I wouldn't worry too much about using the 8 frame. If a winter's particularly bad, you can always add protection to the hive later. If you were much further north, or if you get ugly winters where you are (more than a couple feet of snow in the year) I'd personally stick with the 10 frame if my back could handle it. Bees will use honey not only as food, but as insulation. This is why you'll sometimes see starve-outs where the bees didn't move horizontally, and starved to death just inches from full frames of honey. Typically, it's the frames against the walls that are left full. The bees aren't so much ignoring the honey as they're avoiding the cold of the outer walls and their programming doesn't allow them to weigh the variables. 10 frames give you that extra frame of insulation on either side.

    As for sticking with all mediums, there's other reasons to do that that don't involve just the weight of the hives. For instance, I add my empty frames to the BOTTOM of the hives, as I prefer not to use "honey supers" and queen excluders. (Queen excluders more rapidly wear down the wings of the bees that have to squeeze through them shortening their lifespan.) Bees naturally want to build new comb "downward" and the queen bee will naturally prefer to lay in newer comb. By rotating the hive bodies upwards, I have no problem with queens laying in the honey frames as they naturally keep themselves towards the bottom. Rotating deeps would be incredibly difficult. Using this method, I can keep fresh wax in my hives instead of the old, black, pesticide filled stuff that gets more and more toxic from years of use, and during harvest I also end up with sell-able (albiet darker) beeswax.

    And whether you buy into that whole "it takes x pounds of honey to make 1 pound of wax" mantra (I've heard everything from 6 to 16 - no real studies have been done) the fact is that a hive body full of honey in naturally drawn comb has a miniscule amount of wax in it. I'll take the few ounces of honey lost for a healthy hive any day. The bees will have plenty of room to store the spring rush (in the now empty cells of last year's overwintering stores) as they build the new comb. (Note that the new comb is not typically built by the foragers, so you are not taking away from their ability to collect.)

    Every beekeeper has their own method of keeping bees, and every beekeeper has their reasons for keeping them that way. My reasons are based on 15+ years of research. Still, if your method works for you, I would not call it "stupid." Don't be afraid to experiment, Laketrout. (Although, I wouldn't recommend using my method of experimenting on ALL of your hives simultaneously... It can end poorly, and makes for a very expensive spring.) Just because something's "always been done that way" doesn't necessarily make it "right." Bees were kept for over 5000 years in the same basic way until Johann Dzierzon invented the first movable frame hive - which would ultimately lead to the development of the Langstroth. If we had everything figured out and perfected already we wouldn't be worried about CCD, so clearly there's room for experimentation.

    Have fun!

    http://fdsmagissues.feedstuffs.com/f...fds03_8034.pdf
    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-pbu081408.php
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0818101323.htm
    http://www.thedailygreen.com/environ...cides-55081801

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Stafford, VA
    Posts
    74

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    You're exactly right. Remove three frames, spritz the bees liberally with sugar water, then dump them in gently (there's no reason to slam them around like you see on all the YouTube videos). There will be a handful of stragglers still in the package. Lay the package by the entrance, and put a stick in the package leaning against the entrance for the stragglers to climb up. Once the bees have gotten themselves cleaned up, they'll begin fanning at the entrance to release pheromones to mark their new hive. The others will find their way home easily enough. Now gently and slowly replace your three frames and the bees will move out of the way. Prop your queen cage in there (making sure they can easily get to the candy plug) and close everything up! Come back in three days to remove the queen cage. If she's not been released yet, CAREFULLY release her yourself. (She CAN fly away if you're not careful, slow, and gentle - I have yet to lose one this way, but I've heard horror stories.) I just use a screw to carefully scrape out the excess fondant that they haven't eaten, and then place the cage back into the hive for a day or two.

    When putting in your first package, you won't even have to wear protective gear. I've not yet gotten tagged inserting a package, even with bees that ultimately ended up being grumpy. ("Yet" is no doubt the operative word, though. )

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Shickshinny, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    807

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Thanks for all the help , I see there are alot of ways to manage bees , I'll be learning for a long time , Gavin thanks for taking the time to explain your methods it will all come in handy I'm sure.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Amador County, California, USA
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    If you're just going to be a hobbyist I suggest 8 frame, as it is lighter. If you're thinking of becoming commercial I suggest 10.

    I only have 20 hives but they're all 10 frame hives.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Big Stone Gap, VA
    Posts
    913

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Quote Originally Posted by laketrout View Post
    I see there are alot of ways to manage bees

    There is an old axiom, ask three different beekeepers the same question, and you will get at least four answers.

    Shane

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Jacksonville, Florida
    Posts
    1,611

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    The only downside is the need for more boxes and frames. If you only have a few hives this is not really a big deal.
    The main thing is to use one or the other. I have several 8 frame hives but, most of them are 10frame. It becomes aggravating when going to out yards trying to make sure I have the right size boxes with me. I try to keep all the 8 frame hives at home so this is less of an issue. But, somehow they will invariably get moved to another yard.

    The bees really don't care which size box you use. If I was able to start over now. I would go with 8frame deeps for brood and mediums for supers. That way I could still use standard nucs, and would only need two boxes and 16 frames for brood. The more hives you get the more that extra box and frames are going to add up. JMHO

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Shickshinny, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    807

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Javin I do get nasty winters here , this winter has been very cold and windy , I'm planning some kind of wind break for my hives , so maybe the 10 framers will help also .

    Anyone have any wind break ideas , I have access to pallets if nothing else but would like something more permanent maybe a fence of some kind , I could use some ideas .

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Stafford, VA
    Posts
    74

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Quote Originally Posted by laketrout View Post
    Javin I do get nasty winters here , this winter has been very cold and windy , I'm planning some kind of wind break for my hives , so maybe the 10 framers will help also .

    Anyone have any wind break ideas , I have access to pallets if nothing else but would like something more permanent maybe a fence of some kind , I could use some ideas .
    Depending on the kind of work you want to put into it, building a three sided enclosure around your bee yard isn't a terrible idea. Do you have the option of planting some pine trees around it? Pine pollen is of little nutritional value to the bees, but they won't touch it unless they have no other option anyway. (They do still get plenty of propolis from it.) Pine trees make great wind breaks. If you're particularly patient, cottonwoods also make good windbreaks, as well as produce pollen that the bees like. Without knowing how much space you have to play with, I'd lean towards a natural wind break over trying to build some fencing. This said, if fencing is your only option, I'd just make sure it's a couple feet higher than the hive will ever be during the winter months. Fences also give you the option of propping up a roof to shield them from the sun during the hottest months. (You don't need a roof to keep the snow off, as snow is actually an excellent insulator.)

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Bayfield, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    folks around here will use straw bales to create wind breaks.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Shickshinny, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    807

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    I was afraid straw would bring in the mice !! I have lots of room , small pines would be the best but that takes time , I could transplant some 3 foot trees they would help right away with my new med supers.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Bayfield, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    128

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    opps yea, I didn't think of mice, good call!

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Danbury, CT
    Posts
    2,887

    Default Re: 8 frame or 10 frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I use all mediums, 10 frame. I wouldn't go 8 if you stay with mediums. Maybe I'm not northern enough for bluegrass, but I haven't noticed any difference in wintering with mediums. Easier on my back.
    Every additional frame between the cluster and side wall of the hive adds insulation, especially if those frames are full of honey.
    Always question Conventional Wisdom.

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