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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    columbus oh
    Posts
    5

    Default need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    Hello. I am a relatively new bee keeper and I have a problem.
    I bought a 2 deep lang hive and a package of bees in spring of 2011. They died out in March of 2012. I took out several of the black plastic frames to collect what remained of honey. ( I do not know why this hive died, the inspector had said they looked good in early summer)

    I had planned on setting out some swarm traps near a known feral hive in a tree, not very far from me to replace my bees. I never got the chance, has I cut a couple of tendons in my hand, and was layed up most of the year. Rusted nut, cheap open ended wrench, sharp jagged metal, man in a hurry, accidents will happen.

    Sometime in summer a swarm moved into the hive. I could not work the hive, and thought it likely they would not survive the winter being a summer swarm. Well they did survive, and look to be doing good.

    The past weekend was very nice here in central Ohio, so I popped the lid and inner cover off, and boy I have a mess, because of the missing frames.
    ( just pried the inner cover up a bit to take a peek).

    I wish to switch to top bars. Or maybe just a horizontal with frames and or top bars. After my accident, working a Lang would be problematic. And I was planning on building one anyway has I like the concept. Planned on building a Kenyan, but will have to build a Tanzanian first, or I guess since I have frames a long hive.


    My problems and questions

    1. I have 3 plastic frames along the sides in the upper box and comb hanging from the inner cover looks to be full of honey. I plan on building some hinged cut out frames to deal with this. Should I go with a width of 1 1/2 inches for both honey comb and possibly brood I find in the top box and likely brood comb in the lower? I can not recall if I took frames out of the lower last year, but I think I did. Should I make some cut out frames 1 3/8?

    2 I am not sure how to construct the long hive to utilize these plastic frames and homemade TBs or frames. Should I fasten the plastic frames to a 1 1/2 wide board? Or should I place the plastic frames with a gap (width of?) and cover with a burlap or cloth cover? Or thin plywood? Thinking of swarm control and moving empty top bars between brood later in the spring.
    Should I rabbit a rest for the frames?. What should be the space between the outer plastic frame and the inside of the hive?.

    3 When should I do this? The next warm day or wait a bit. I saw a small amount of pollen being taken in last weekend, not much but some.

    4 Just general advise. Have been watching lots of youtube videos of cut outs, but not much to be found on moving a neglected lang hive to a horizontal hive .

    Thanks Kevin

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    hinesville ga usa
    Posts
    333

    Default Re: need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    Quote Originally Posted by scioto View Post
    Hello. I am a relatively new bee keeper and I have a problem.
    I bought a 2 deep lang hive and a package of bees in spring of 2011. They died out in March of 2012. I took out several of the black plastic frames to collect what remained of honey. ( I do not know why this hive died, the inspector had said they looked good in early summer)

    I had planned on setting out some swarm traps near a known feral hive in a tree, not very far from me to replace my bees. I never got the chance, has I cut a couple of tendons in my hand, and was layed up most of the year. Rusted nut, cheap open ended wrench, sharp jagged metal, man in a hurry, accidents will happen.

    Sometime in summer a swarm moved into the hive. I could not work the hive, and thought it likely they would not survive the winter being a summer swarm. Well they did survive, and look to be doing good.

    The past weekend was very nice here in central Ohio, so I popped the lid and inner cover off, and boy I have a mess, because of the missing frames.
    ( just pried the inner cover up a bit to take a peek).

    I wish to switch to top bars. Or maybe just a horizontal with frames and or top bars. After my accident, working a Lang would be problematic. And I was planning on building one anyway has I like the concept. Planned on building a Kenyan, but will have to build a Tanzanian first, or I guess since I have frames a long hive.


    My problems and questions

    1. I have 3 plastic frames along the sides in the upper box and comb hanging from the inner cover looks to be full of honey. I plan on building some hinged cut out frames to deal with this. Should I go with a width of 1 1/2 inches for both honey comb and possibly brood I find in the top box and likely brood comb in the lower? I can not recall if I took frames out of the lower last year, but I think I did. Should I make some cut out frames 1 3/8?

    2 I am not sure how to construct the long hive to utilize these plastic frames and homemade TBs or frames. Should I fasten the plastic frames to a 1 1/2 wide board? Or should I place the plastic frames with a gap (width of?) and cover with a burlap or cloth cover? Or thin plywood? Thinking of swarm control and moving empty top bars between brood later in the spring.
    Should I rabbit a rest for the frames?. What should be the space between the outer plastic frame and the inside of the hive?.

    3 When should I do this? The next warm day or wait a bit. I saw a small amount of pollen being taken in last weekend, not much but some.

    4 Just general advise. Have been watching lots of youtube videos of cut outs, but not much to be found on moving a neglected lang hive to a horizontal hive .

    Thanks Kevin
    I have both langs and Kenyan hives. I suggest you go to one of the top bar construction sites on beesource or get on youtube and find one. After much experimenting with bar size I settled on 1 3/8 wide bars, if you go with 1 1/4 in the brood nest and 1 3/8 for honey the bees will not read the script and you will have them all mixed up. As for a long hive on the Tansanian style box with standard frames I found that I got much better results with the Kenyan because the pest had fewer places to hide. Or you can use the F foundationless frames from Kelly Bees in your Tansanian.
    Get your hive built and move it next to the lang, order a queen catcher, take your time and try to find the queen so you won't hurt her during the transfer. Remember your greatest asset is the fact that these bees swarmed late and still made it through the winter, that queen is worth any ten that you can order from down here.
    Just before you tranfer the bees put some of their open brood comb in the new box, just attach them with rubber bands. Dump the bees on or near the new box, have the queen in the queen catcher already in the new box, if you didn't find her just kill as few bees as possible when you do the transfer, clean out and remove the lang away from the area. Place the honey away from the hive but close enough for the bees to find and not close enough to start another hive robbing. If all goes well you will find in just a few days the bees have started building brood comb and the honey has been collected and put in brand new combs in your new box. If you caught the queen wait about twenty four hours to release her. Both the transfer and queen release is best done just before dark.
    Just some thoughts from someone that the bees make a fool of every year. The best of luck. BTW that old lang would be a great swarm trap

    You can take as many of the open brood comb as possible and attach them to the top bars with rubber bands ( even just one will work ) and dump the bees on or near it they will do the rest.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    columbus oh
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    Thanks for the quick response. I think I will place an order with Kelly for the f frames and queen catcher. Any ideal on when I should do the move?

    I think these bees came from a big old beech tree that is in a park next door to me. It has been a very strong hive every since I found it 3 years ago. I was planning on making a couple traps out of the old lang and setting them up near the tree. But alas the park department put a walking path just 15 ft away from the tree. It was active last fall, but I checked it out this past weekend and looks like they gassed them.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    hinesville ga usa
    Posts
    333

    Default Re: need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    Quote Originally Posted by scioto View Post
    Thanks for the quick response. I think I will place an order with Kelly for the f frames and queen catcher. Any ideal on when I should do the move?

    I think these bees came from a big old beech tree that is in a park next door to me. It has been a very strong hive every since I found it 3 years ago. I was planning on making a couple traps out of the old lang and setting them up near the tree. But alas the park department put a walking path just 15 ft away from the tree. It was active last fall, but I checked it out this past weekend and looks like they gassed them.
    Sounds like you have some bees that have adapted very well to your climate. I would suggest waiting until they are good and strong, transfering them will knock then back some and you don't want to lose these bees, they are several generation feral which means they are already small cell and placing them on foundationless will continue that. I would take good care to feed them well until I could get several splits so I could keep these genetics, I think they would live without treatments, well I think they already have. If everything goes right you should have better luck over-wintering these bees. As for the swarm traps I would still put them out with a little old comb. "Good luck" let us know next spring how things went.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    columbus oh
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    Thanks again. Yes I do want to keep these genetics. I know they produced multiple swarms over the past years. I tried to catch a few but was just a newb and was afraid. Need to walk these woods to find another bee tree they may of taken up in.

    If anything to make splitting easier in my new long hive let me know.(Before I build it) thinking like putting a split in the end of the long hive.

    But that is a ways off yet. Thanks Again

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    660

    Default Re: need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    I would go with a long hive. It is more versatile to use standard frames and you can use your existing boxes on it as supers. I have a double width hive (2x10 frame). Here are more details about it here: http://daveybees.wikidot.com/longhive

    If you don't want to put many supers on, I would go for a triple width (3x10 frame) hive. You should also have two entrances. I would recommend an entrance at each end, one at the top and the other at the bottom. The bottom one can be quite small, like less than a inch wide. Don't put an entrance in the middle. You will also need a follower board as they expand (you can have an entrance hole in this).

    The hive is easy to make. It's just the same as making a normal Langstroth, just wider. Use migratory style lids. I just used marine ply for the base, but I would recommend having a tray that can be removed to help clean out the bottom.

    With the comb, you can just put it in empty frames with rubber bands around them. Then move them out to the outsides as more comb in built on standard frames.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    columbus oh
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    Thanks Matthew. Those are pretty hives. Looks like I should add a queen excluder to my order with Kellys.

    Why the two entrances in each end?

    Lots of opinions on entrance locations and numbers of.
    In my head I had just planned on a entrance on one end. Perhaps on bottom and on top at one end.

    Also trying to decide if I should use a screened bottom, but for sure a removable tray would be nice.
    Thanks Kevin

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,889

    Default Re: need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    >1. I have 3 plastic frames along the sides in the upper box and comb hanging from the inner cover looks to be full of honey. I plan on building some hinged cut out frames to deal with this. Should I go with a width of 1 1/2 inches for both honey comb and possibly brood I find in the top box and likely brood comb in the lower? I can not recall if I took frames out of the lower last year, but I think I did. Should I make some cut out frames 1 3/8?

    1 1/2" is easy to make. 1 3/8" will work. It doesn't matter that much for a cutout.

    >2 I am not sure how to construct the long hive to utilize these plastic frames and homemade TBs or frames. Should I fasten the plastic frames to a 1 1/2 wide board? Or should I place the plastic frames with a gap (width of?) and cover with a burlap or cloth cover? Or thin plywood?

    Either would work. The bigger issue is how the frames fit. Are they on a frame rabbet down below the edges or are they resting on the edges. If they are resting on the edges, then you have the further issue of the gaps between the ends of the top bars.

    > Thinking of swarm control and moving empty top bars between brood later in the spring.
    Should I rabbit a rest for the frames?

    If you mix frames and top bars, I would.

    > What should be the space between the outer plastic frame and the inside of the hive?.

    You always need an extra 1/4" minimum...

    >3 When should I do this? The next warm day or wait a bit. I saw a small amount of pollen being taken in last weekend, not much but some.

    I would do it when you're pretty sure winter is over. I'd go for the first fruit tree bloom...

    >4 Just general advise. Have been watching lots of youtube videos of cut outs, but not much to be found on moving a neglected lang hive to a horizontal hive .

    Same principle. Just set them in a horizontal hive instead of a vertical one... Put the brood together. Put pollen next to the brood. Put the honey together...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    columbus oh
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    Thanks Michael. I was just on your site when I got an email notice you had replied.

    I was reading your article about 2 queen hives. You mentioned that the horizontal hive should have a grove to insert queen excluders. I think I will put a couple groves in my hive in case I wish to try this in the future. Thanks Kevin

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    660

    Default Re: need advice, neglected lang move to horizontal hive

    Entrances at each end greatly improve ventilation. There is little bearding, even at 40C/104F and also less condensation in winter.

    It's also easy to make splits or raise queens with the entrances at each end. You just need a division board/follower board or vertical queen excluder.

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