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  1. #801
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    > Dean, can you direct me to the posts where you discussed TimIves?

    See post #457. Also, Ramona posted about Tim #781.

    You can search a thread on Beesource with the "Search Thread" function, accessed above the first post on each thread page, but below the large "Bold" thread title.

    .

    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 04-10-2013 at 06:13 AM. Reason: spelling
    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  2. #802
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    this may be apples and oranges dean, i.e. tim's large established colonies vs. my overwintered nucs last year having to draw all but the few frames they started with.
    I think it's probably more valuable to consider the differences rather than focus on the similarities. A nuc is entirely different than 3 overwintered deeps.

    i tried putting a medium of foundation above the single deep and below the one or two freshly drawn mediums of honey last year and it put all nine colonies into swarm mode.
    If my SHM hypothesis has any merit, it would not apply here....I think the large reserve of honey in/around the brood nest coupled with a large population before there is a lot of foraging going on is necessary for the honey to get moved (it has to already exist in the hive, there has to be a large enough population to move it around). You likely don't have this in an overwintered nuc or smaller colony.

    in this case it seemed to act more as a barrier which precipitated backfilling in the deeps.
    Exactly...there probably wasn't enough of a population to deal with the brood and move honey around...a large population is key to Tim's model (according to him, and according to my best analysis).

    other than this nuance tim's approach and the one that i am evolving are very similar.
    This is hardly a nuance....instead of producing a monster crop, your bees are swarming.

    for my clime, a medium of pollen on the bottom and a medium of honey on top with a deep in between seems to be just right for overwintering.
    If I had to guess what Tim would say to this, I imagine it would be on the order of, "That's what all the beekeepers around me say". Overwintering is one thing, getting the bees to convert a large store of honey into a large broodnest early in the season requires more resources than "overwintering" does. It requires room, stores, population, and stimulation. In his case, Tim seems to have figured out how to mesh all of these in his area with his bees....and found a way to accomplish the stimulation without feeding.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  3. #803
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,417

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    interesting point dean.

    i haven't had syrup on the hives for a couple of years, and have let the bees determine their own colony size.

    would i have more population for the main flow if i left even more honey? not sure.

    last year spring came early and there was a lot of winter honey left when the early flows started.

    this year has been the opposite.

    other than the timing of it, i don't see a big difference in colony build up.

    another difference in a location like this in which flow is bimodal, is that the bees will consume a fair amount of their spring honey to make it through the 2 - 3 month summer dearth. too many bees might actually cause less harvestable honey.

    like you said, it's about meshing it all......

    i don't care if i get a monster crop, but i predict it will be respectable once all of the hives have their full compliment of comb.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #804
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,812

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Dan and Mark, You might want to actually read the thread. from the post by rhaldridge " He also believes that keeping the hive's wax builders maxed out is one key to preventing swarming."

    The claim that bees will not draw foundation came from Walt in his booklet Nectar Management. and was specifically claimed due to the lack of wax makers.
    Well, when you put it that way ...
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  5. #805

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Well, when you put it that way ...
    That made sense to you?!
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  6. #806
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,399

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    When I tried searching Beesource, all I got were links to threads, not individual posts.
    If you use the forum search function, use the advanced search. You'll want the Search Single Content Type tab. Search for Posts is default.
    Regards, Barry

  7. #807
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    That made sense to you?!
    No.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #808
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    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    2,931

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I suppose you woudl have to be familiar with Walts writings. In his book Nectar Management. Walt takes great care to make a case that bees will not draw foundation pre swarm period (Late winter / Early spring). He actually makes the case that wax makers are not present in the early colony and this is part of the reason for a three week delay between swarm cut off and honey foraging in the spring.

    Now another beekeepers seems to be claiming that plentiful Wax makers during this period are key to his methods. again doing something Walt claims is not done.

    So far I have received one link to an additional article by Walt where he explains an exception to the no wax maker situation in a second year colony that finishes their first season without completing there comb building.

    Not only that but I am sure there is no reason to think that hives that are 3 times plus the strength of a typical colony would have anything to do with being able to operate treatment free.

    This is a beekeeper that supposedly is successfully operating treatment free and with a method that appears to be significantly different as well as making a claim that runs directly counter to claims made by Walt in his book. In fact it seems he thinks that specific difference is significant. As far as I know Walt has never altered his claims concerning early season wax makers in the colony.

    I don't think you are as confused as you seem to want to pretend you are. I think you want to be antagonistic. you did not need to respond to my question given you had nothing to offer in the way of an answer. that you failed to see any importance in my question is your lack of knowledge not mine. If you do not like my bluntness in responding to your rude behavior, then don't speak to me. Your ignorance does not make my question irrelevant. It is relevant for reasons you don't seem to know anything about. That is something that is common.

    It is a bit surprising to me that a person can post a video and a statement on a thread about treatment free beekeeping that includes a treatment free beekeeper. Then a direct question can be asked about how he does it. included in the answer to that question is the specific point that early Wax Makers are assured. Yet neither of you can make the connection about how early wax makers in the colony is relevant to the conversation. and that you seem to know little to nothing about the issues of early wax makers. And somehow this makes me the one that does not know what they are doing. Okay you enjoy that. I don't care. I know that Wax makers in the early build up of the colony could make a significant difference in how that colony functions. And I also understand in fair detail exactly why. At least according to Walt. And now there is a treatment free beekeeper that is making the claim that this very specific and significant issue is at least one of the reasons for his success at being treatment free. There may also be a claim in there that this situation of wax makers can be manged. altered manipulated or stimulated. In the link provided Walt makes no such claims. he makes a case for a specific temporary exception to the no wax maker situation. That is not what I am looking for and I don't believe that is what is being claimed in the comments above. I am hearing that Tim says an abundance of wax makers in late winter early spring is critical to his methods of keeping bees treatment free.

    Now please explain to me how that entire conversation and my question are in fact not relevant to the topic of keeping bees successfully with treatment free methods. Or do you just not know what you are talking about. Just becasue you don't know what is being talked about does not mean it is off topic.
    Last edited by Daniel Y; 04-10-2013 at 06:14 AM.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  9. #809
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Now another beekeepers seems to be claiming that plentiful Wax makers during this period are key to his methods. again doing something Walt claims is not done.
    If you are referring to Tim Ives, I did not hear him make any claims about waxbuilders....the things that I posted were my analysis of what might be going on based on what he presented.

    WRT much of the rest of your post, you are correct. If we were to count the incorrect statements made by a small handful of posters in this thread...it would be a big handful....and this is telling.

    The truth seems to be that few here are really curious. Curious people ask questions. Ignorant people make false statements out of ignorance.

    When our friend told us about Tim Ives we looked him up, and found that he was speaking nearby.....nearby meaning a 4 hour drive each way to New Jersey.

    Curiosity led us to be on the road for 8 hours that day/evening.

    How curious were the other posters about what Tim Ives was doing (based on the fact that I mentioned his name as a commercial treatment free beekeeper)....not even curious enough to ask, "who is Tim Ives"?

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  10. #810
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    Manitoba Canada
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    5,873

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    How curious were the other posters about what Tim Ives was doing (based on the fact that I mentioned his name as a commercial treatment free beekeeper)....not even curious enough to ask, "who is Tim Ives"?

    deknow
    are you going to get as offended when we ask about Tim as you did when we asked about Dee?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  11. #811
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,332

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Aww come on Dean, a lot gets lost in 500+ posts. The fact that a name was randomly dropped means little in the context of the discussion. I would be interested in learning more about exactly what he is doing and how it might apply to the discussion at hand.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #812

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    are you going to get as offended when we ask about Tim as you did when we asked about Dee?
    Have you read all of his reading assignments and traveled to hear the guy speak yourself? If not, then you can't hold a discussion on the topic.
    Sun's up....
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  13. #813
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    In the case of Dee's operation, there are many pages of her writings hosted here on beesource....are you curious enough to have read them?

    If you had, you would not have insisted that she _must_ be keeping nucs to repopulate.

    ...but outside of the personal financial/production figures that were demanded (the kind of data that we don't have on any contributor here or commercial operation...with the possible exception of Mike Palmer), what questions were being asked?

    I was told that I had taken down the videos of working with Dee's bees in 2008.
    I was told that she only has 300 hives.
    I was told that she doesn't make her living as a beekeeper.

    ...these are just off the top of my head...I won't waste time digging through the thread....all 3 are false statements, ones that I tried with varying degrees of success to address. In response? A gross misunderstanding of what Allen Dick posted on Bee-L was used as "evidence"....has anyone been curious enough to (as I suggested) email Allen and ask him specifically what he meant? I didn't think so.

    Has anyone here who claims to be interested in commercial treatment free beekeeping taken Chris Baldwin up on his offer to chat on the phone about things? I didn't think so.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  14. #814
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    In the case of Dee's operation, there are many pages of her writings hosted here on beesource....are you curious enough to have read them?

    If you had, you would not have insisted that she _must_ be keeping nucs to repopulate.
    Yes, thats why I asked if her "splits" were full hive splits, or what I would consider as nucs.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #815
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    >>>I am hearing that Tim says an abundance of wax makers in late winter early spring is critical to his methods of keeping bees treatment free.<<<

    Daniel Y, I cant track down where he talks a whole lot about this.
    Can you explain to me why you think these wax makers are so critical to treatment free beekeeping?
    Why call them wax makers, why not young bees?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #816
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Has anyone here who claims to be interested in commercial treatment free beekeeping taken Chris Baldwin up on his offer to chat on the phone about things? I didn't think so.

    deknow
    Seriously, my interest goes about as far as chatting in this thread,
    Chris knows about this thread, if he was really interested in chatting with us he would be here.
    I dont know about you but Im enjoying the conversation
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  17. #817

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    traveled to hear the guy speak yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Has anyone here who claims to be interested in commercial treatment free beekeeping taken Chris Baldwin up on his offer to chat on the phone about things?
    Sorry, I missed one…or phoned the guy?
    Also…don’t’ forget those reading assignments.
    Trucks loaded…been fun…gotta go.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  18. #818

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Ok, you’ve read a boatload of tf beekeepers' writings. You traveled great distances to hear them explain how they do it. With that in mind Dean…I must ask…which treatment free strategy(s) have you successfully implemented in your beeyards?
    Ok...sandwich has been wolfed down...must unload the beekeeping stuff and replace with market stuff for the Wednesday afternoon farmers' market....and a shower is in order.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  19. #819
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,935

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Dean I think you somehow got the glass 1/2 empty today. Life ain't all that bad.

    Me, I've read everything Dee has written in her section on Beesource. When I saw mention of Tim in this thread, I didn't rush off & see him, no. But watched his video plus read the links given, plus followed other links given in those links.

    If I did that, I'm sure others did, I don't think you need to be so negative.

    I would say though, that to a commercial beekeeper watching the video, the video of Tim working the hives shows considerable lack of experience in handling bees in a commercial scenario, and a commercial beekeeper could easily decide to go no further. I would understand that.

    Which is not to say Tim is not on to something, and listening to him speak in the video he strikes me as particularly open minded, a guy who will learn and investigate.

    To me, Tim's method has a lot in common with the checkerboarding method developed by Walt, although it is not the same, but the effect will be similar. However I've often seen Walt poo poo'ed about his checkerboarding method, which always pains me somewhat.

    In the TF world we are constantly hearing about the latest thing, the latest "success". After having been exposed to several years of this, I am still really none the wiser about how to run a treatment free hive, and less inclined to rush off and personally visit, or call, every person with a new idea.

    It is apparent Tim is a speaker in considerable demand. This is a possible red flag to me. Commercial beekeepers make their money from their bees, and less so by talking about them. Which again, is not to say he may not be getting results, but I consider a commercial beekeeper to be one who makes his living by his bees.

    Don't want to be taken wrong though, I was impressed by what I saw of Tim as an intelligent, and honest guy, who does not speak in riddles. The kind of person we need working in the TF area.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #820
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    >>>I am hearing that Tim says an abundance of wax makers in late winter early spring is critical to his methods of keeping bees treatment free.<<<

    Daniel Y, I cant track down where he talks a whole lot about this.
    Can you explain to me why you think these wax makers are so critical to treatment free beekeeping?
    Why call them wax makers, why not young bees?
    I think it was something I wrote. I asked Tim how he kept those monster hives from swarming, and he said that he checkerboards his supers, and in passing said that he thought that helped at least partly because it kept a lot of young bees making wax instead of thinking about swarming. Or at least that's how I interpreted what he said. I don't know that it is directly applicable to his method, except that his methods involves very heavily populated hives in very early spring, which as a beginner, I understand can be hard to keep from swarming.

    I don't really feel comfortable posting his email here without his permission, but if you go to this website, you can find it.

    http://www.theunitygardens.org/

    He seems to be a very helpful and straightforward guy. I'll be interested to see if anyone from here has any questions for him.

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