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Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

144K views 845 replies 56 participants last post by  Tim Ives 
#1 ·
A few years ago Ted K and I entered into a wager, that within 15 years even commercial beekeepers would be treatment free. In light of some comments made on the "unwritten rules..." thread about the impact of treatments on queens, I was wondering:

Are any commercial beekeepers experimenting with an apiary or so the possibilities of going treatment free? I realize it is an economic impossibility to risk your whole operation, but is anyone testing the possibilities with a small portion of your operation?
Regards,
Steven
 
#148 ·
Beemandan,

I think you make an excellent point. One's objective/goals will greatly influence the decisions that one makes. I disagree with the fact that a backyard beekeeper can afford to close his eyes to reality anymore than a commercial beekeeper can. The end result will be dead hives & loss of money for both, obliviously on a much larger scale for the commercial beekeeper. And yes, varroa is, for most, the largest issue they have to deal with. I say most because SHB are my worst problem. I won't bother to say anything about mites because you wouldn't believe me anyway.

You made another statement; " We see, every day, posts from new beekeepers who’ve had their hives collapse. And, nearly without exception, when they list their suspected culprits….they fail to mention the most likely. Why do you suppose that might be? " I think the answer to that question lies in your own words, NEW. That one single word tells me that the loss of those hives were due to multiple mistakes and yes I would agree that varroa will most of the time come into play. This is because they are not be properly trained to spot & deal with these issues. And again there also lies the problem. No agreement between beekeepers as to how to spot & deal with problems. As I see it, it the " ACCEPTED " beekeeping practices that have helped create the problems we all face regardless what level we keep bees on.
 
#149 ·
I disagree with the fact that a backyard beekeeper can afford to close his eyes to reality anymore than a commercial beekeeper can. The end result will be dead hives & loss of money for both, obliviously on a much larger scale for the commercial beekeeper.
Without getting argumentative I will also disagree. When a backyard beekeeper loses hives to varroa, it may have a small impact on the household budget. With a commercial beekeeper, large scale varroa losses will be financially devastating.....like if your job disappeared tomorrow. I cannot even begin to compare the two situations.

The further south you go...the more serious shb become. I see that you are in TN....which means that I am south of you. I understand small hive beetles.

If you told me that you tested for varroa in a recognized formal fashion...then I would believe whatever you told me about your varroa. If you tell me that they aren't a problem for you and you don't do any testing...I'll believe that you have no idea.

Good luck
 
#150 ·
It is important to point out that if you want to truly get bees that have some level of resistance to mites the breeder needs to get actual mite counts by pulling pupae and doing systematic counts. That takes some degree of patience and pain staking work. Good nreeders do that. We recently screened 80 of our own hives as potential breeders via ether rolls. 77 were negative. Do those hives have mites? Heck yes they do but with so much open brood it's really hard to get a handle on what the true mite numbers are. Any claims by beekeepers that mites aren't a problem for them need to be asked how and when are you testing.
 
#152 ·
Beemandan,

Thanks for your well wishes and I wish the same for you. I think that it may be safe to say that we don't completely agree, and don't completely disagree. It is clear that we both have a passion for beekeeping and that we both are truly concerned about the future of beekeeping. As to varroa testing, I do test using sticky boards, powder sugar rolls, and ether rolls. I am always open to suggestions from others because I am the type who never stops learning.

Best to you & yours.
 
#153 ·
very nice exchange here, and very imformative. thanks to all for contributing.

just a sideliner here, starting my fourth season, and have not treated for mites (yet).

after starting with treatment free bees, and having zero losses the first three winters, i lost 6 out of 18 this winter. a heavy mite infestation was identified in one, while queen failure (perhaps brought on by mites) appears to have been the problem in the other five.

as a beginner, i did find it overwhelming (in a good way) at first. there was so much to learn and do that i simply put testing for mites on the backburner. after buying treatment free bees and experiencing no losses i was lulled into complacency toward mites.

i will definitely be testing all of the hives this year, and will try to use that information to help decide which queens to graft from, which hives to requeen, and which hives to dequeen and split up into mating nucs.

i am trying to make a profit with the sideline, but i don't mind experimenting to see if i can propagate a line of bees that can coexist with mites off treatments.

if it is not possible to keep my losses to a minimum, i will consider using a fall treatment, most likely an organic acid.
 
#160 ·
p counting Varroa?

Now I always look to see what my losses are about and they USED to be from Varroa. Why would I keep monitoring Varroa when they haven't been an issue for me for a decade? I have better things to do with my time.[/QUOTE]

Michael, I appreciate the efforts you have made in the name of treatment free beekeeping and I admire the success which you have achieved while being treatment free.

You other guys, give it at least 5 years of treatment free success, imo, before bragging about it too much.

I don't 'count' my mites either; however, I do sometimes take pieces of drone cell larvae and break them open too see how 'prevalent' the mites are. No count, just observe. I just had an unusual experience when I found lots of what was apparently chalkbrood in some drones and few mites. What I usually see is mites! And if I see a lot of mites I will tear out some drones (natural cell).

So Michael, I'd appreciate it if you would take the time to break open a piece of drone comb or 2 this year so you can tell us your mite observations (lots, some, few, none), as I remain curious while knowing full well that if I went treatment free................................................it would be bad.

H
 
#164 ·
>So Michael, I'd appreciate it if you would take the time to break open a piece of drone comb or 2 this year so you can tell us your mite observations (lots, some, few, none)

The bee inspector does this on a few of my hives every year and here are his results for the last nine years:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm
 
#168 ·
It isn't that MB's colonies don't fail....it is that he insists that NONE of the failures are related to varroa.
And he also doesn't to ANY testing.
It is a broad claim without any objective evidence.
 
#170 ·
From what I've seen, I'd suggest that most of his failures are due to lids blowing off in the middle of winter, pesticide use by farmers, and other beekeepers messing with his hives.

The scale that you guys predict and insist should happen just doesn't.

That's why I keep feeling like I have to get involved in these conversations. It's a bunch of conjecture, talking about things no one is done and all sorts of wild predictions saying that it can't. No, there are no migratory commercial beekeepers. So nobody should be commenting because nobody has done it? That's the most consistent logic I can see in this conversation. You want to discuss treatment-free commercial beekeeping, discuss with with people who do it. And believe what they say! And don't discount anybody's experience because they don't run as many hives as you do. Nobody fits the subject of the thread, so you can't exclude anyone from participating because they only fit half. There is no 'Sideliner' forum. There are a bunch of treatment-free sideliners.
 
#172 ·
#173 ·
i'll take your word for it sol, as i do michael's

face value doesn't tell the tale, as is evidenced by the numerous testimonies here on beesource of hives collapsing with no obvious visual indication of mites. short of an alcohol wash or something comparable it's not possible to know.

sorry, i can't pay you to do it, but it would be priceless to know what the % infestion rate was last summer in your 23/23 surviving colonies. (awesome success by the way :))

i see folks trying to get past the differences here, do you think we can?
 
#177 ·
i see folks trying to get past the differences here, do you think we can?
Of course we can.


As I reported (here on Beesource and on my blog at the time) in November of 2011, I was doing my final fall inspection. I had this one hive since spring of 2007. It was a nuc I purchased from FatBeeMan. It had probably swarmed at least once and likely superseded one or more times. It had been split a substantial number of times, maybe as many as a dozen over the years. When I checked this hive in November of 2011, it was massively infested with mites. There were several frames of bees and some brood and I remember quite vividly that there were mites everywhere. There were many to be seen hanging onto bees. They were crawling on the comb. I could see some in brood cells. I fully expected this hive to crash and die. So, I wrote it off.

But it was not the one hive that died that winter. It survived. I made a nuc of it in the spring and used it to draw comb through bee season 2012. It starved out in late summer. (Can't keep nucs in NWA, but that's a story for another day.) It did not have readily visible mites through 2012.

It is my experience that massive visible and obvious mite infestations do not necessarily correlate with hive collapse.

And the offer still stands. If someone wants to pay for my time and materials, I will be happy to test every hive every weekend all year.
 
#174 ·
Solomon, I don’t believe I have ever questioned the number of losses you or MB report.
But…when someone claims that before they went to small cell they lost all of their hives to varroa….and once the converted, they never lost another to mites…I’m sorry but until I see some objective data…….I’m unconvinced.
 
#176 ·
Ok Sol........you've witnessed farmers improper use of pesticides in and around his hives, you've witnessed other beekeepers messing with his hives.....and.....you've witnessed most of Michael Bush's hive failures.
 
#179 ·
I don't think this thread should be about why Mr Bush lost bees. What I respectfully asked was a simple question. "Do you think a spring visual inspection is a true indication of whether you might have varroa related failures later in the year".
As I said yesterday I checked 80 hives via ether roll this spring and 77 of the samples were negative and I know how little even that means 4 months from now. Spring is the reverse of fall. its a time when there is far more open brood than there are mites. It's a target rich environment for a phoretic mite. That's just a simple fact.
 
#183 ·
If anyone reading this believes that a spring visual inspection of a sampling of your hives is proof that you don't have a varroa problem now is the time to state your case.
 
#187 ·
At what point in this 10 page thread did we switch from a peaceful discussion of whether a Commercial Operator can, or is, treatment free, to a discussion over what Sol's losses were from? Or whether they were statistically significant? Or whether anyone "credits" his "findings" like they "should" with someone who has 10 years of experience? Just asking so if I go back and decide to re-read this thread for it's valuable information I can skip the p***ing contest in the middle.

A shame that this "Commercial" thread has turned the typical route of just about any thread in the "Treatment Free" section.
 
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