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  1. #741
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
    Posts
    165

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    The video you all are referencing was shot by Anita Deeley, a woman and first time visitor to Dee's beeyards. Her blog is BeverlyBees.

    Each yard we visited has between 20 and 50 colonies, each colony 4 boxes in March, at least 2 of the boxes occupied by bees, so no, all the bees are not in the air!

    Mike, do you think that when bees draw comb in nature, without foundation, that there is an order to the cell orientation? What do the combs and cells look likein a natural hive?

    This trip through the yards was not a work up but to check for deadouts and mostly to give the conference visitors a chance to see the bees and how they are generally managed. No "help" was needed.

    Dean did go through one yard with the smoker amd the bees were very calm.

    For anyone serious about understanding her bees, Dee is a generous and gracious host. We have worked the bees with her over the past 6 years and are still alive and continue to return to her yards.

    Sometimes I wonder what you "guys" are so afraid of!

    Ramona

  2. #742

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    For anyone serious about understanding her bees, Dee is a generous and gracious host.
    I don't doubt that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    Sometimes I wonder what you "guys" are so afraid of!
    It's hard for me to believe you wrote that. Responsible beekeepers don't keep bees that are that aggressive anywhere other than the most remote beeyards. What are we afraid of? Dead or injured pets, livestock, people, lawsuits...etc.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  3. #743
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
    Posts
    165

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    I don't doubt that.



    It's hard for me to believe you wrote that. Responsible beekeepers don't keep bees that are that aggressive anywhere other than the most remote beeyards. What are we afraid of? Dead or injured pets, livestock, people, lawsuits...etc.
    The bees share water tanks with cattle - that is their water supply.

    No one is asking anyone to keep Dee's bees or to keep bees irresponsibly. What I'm referring to is endless commenting on the nature of her bees and management without bothering to see for yourself.

    The video's serve as an introduction but in no way can tell the whole story. It's hard for me to believe that so many feel comfortable commenting without personaly experiencing the bees they are commenting on.

    Ramona

  4. #744
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,222

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I fear for the safety of others around our hives constantly. In any given year I can only guess how many incidents we have where friendly folks come near enough to our yards just to chat while we are working them. Many of our locations are located where hunters routinely walk and of course the rancher on a horse or 4 wheeler pass near a yard is just a common occurrence for us. My experience is that oneof the biggest problems with bees like that is they follow you so far away from the yard that you need a huge buffer zone around the yard. Again, it's not the beekeepers I worry about. It seems to be working well for Dee in her locale and I think that is great but for most of the rest of us no thanks.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #745

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    What I'm referring to is endless commenting on the nature of her bees and management without bothering to see for yourself.
    Nice try....but no cigar.
    Some things just can’t be rewritten.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    Sometimes I wonder what you "guys" are so afraid of!
    I’m sorry but this had nothing to do with endless commenting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    "guys"…. afraid of!
    Now if you said it was an effort to embarrass the gender….I might have bought into it.

    Gotta go...sun's up...bees are flying....there's work to be done.....those bees don't know it's Sunday.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  6. #746
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,589

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post



    Sometimes I wonder what you "guys" are so afraid of!
    If someone else visits Dee I'd be interested to know if her house is decorated with giant gingerbread cookies in the form of children...

    You can PM me.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  7. #747
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,222

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I have never said anything denigrating about Dee nor do I have any reason to but if someone would ask me a question about the temperament or handling characteristics of Africanized bees I might have to refer them to that video particularly since its in a region known to be preferred and populated with Africanized bees. I should mention, though, that foraging bees whether its water , nectar or pollen are not agressive bees. Got no dog in this fight, though. Time to get back to work.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  8. #748
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,303

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    The bees share water tanks with cattle - that is their water supply.
    Sharing water tanks: big ones by the way, many thousands of gallons and near 20' dia. if I remember right.

    No one is asking anyone to keep Dee's bees or to keep bees irresponsibly. What I'm referring to is endless commenting on the nature of her bees and management without bothering to see for yourself.
    Some of us have kept Dee's bees. Myself and two others that I know of ended up removing her stock from our bees due to excessive aggressiveness.

    Let me add, I think the conflict arises when one tries to constantly down play images of bees "attacking a camera" as an unusual event, when to most observing of the images, would consider it excessively aggressive behavior. My experience, there was a range of aggressiveness across all their yards. Some that I would consider tolerable, some, like the one in the video, I would never tolerate, unless of course I had thousands of acres of wilderness around me, but even then. . . .

    I will also point out that the hives they kept at their home yard in the industrial lot did not express this aggressiveness. With dogs, a goat, and people walking around them in close quarters, I never observed any hives with "chasers". I chalk this up to the fact that they used this yard as their holding place for swarms that were dropped off from in town Tucson. These would have a high degree of European genes. They would then move them to their out yards in the desert.
    Last edited by Barry; 04-07-2013 at 10:21 AM.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #749
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,303

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    Mike, do you think that when bees draw comb in nature, without foundation, that there is an order to the cell orientation? What do the combs and cells look likein a natural hive?
    I know for a fact there is order. The order I've seen from cut-outs is random. I have feral comb sent to me from another member taken from a gum that shows this as well. Old dark wax comb by the way, not new light colored wax. I don't doubt some have seen some kind of order, but if it isn't seen in all circumstances, how can you claim it's the right way?
    Regards, Barry

  10. #750

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    In for a bite of lunch…..
    When I see video of those bees attacking the camera…I can’t laugh it off as the bees not liking the paparazzi. Those bees don’t know that is a camera. They are attacking an object that their instincts identify as an enemy. When those same instincts get focused on a child or someone’s grandmother…can you imagine the result?
    ...now back to the bee mines.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  11. #751
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,097

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    A black and shiny object moving around would get most beehives going after it I would imagine.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  12. #752
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NE Calif.
    Posts
    2,290

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    You never know what will set some bees off. My gentle cordovans once went into a stinging frenzy when I used a vac to take bee samples from the entrance for nosema testing.
    We can safely assume Dee is keeping Africanized bees. They are known to be highly varroa resistant and 4.9 is there natural cell size.It works for her and thats fine with me. Those bees would never cut it where almond pollination hives are set next to roads, schools and back yards with kids playing around them.

    I cannot fathom how Mr. Baldwin keeps his bees free of damaging levels of varroa if he is pollinating almonds.But happy he is able to do so.

    Oh well ,back to the bee mines for me too. Fences to put up, and hives need shaken after that terrible experience in almonds where they came back heavy and overpopulated!

  13. #753
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,303

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    A black and shiny object moving around would get most beehives going after it I would imagine.
    I sure don't experience this when I'm taking pictures/video of my bees. I also don't think the camera set them off. You're just seeing the nature of these bees in this particular yard. We pulled up to one yard where the bees were hitting the glass before we ever got out of the truck and we were behind some brush many yards away from the hives. Again, this wasn't the norm for all the yards, but there were a few like this.
    Regards, Barry

  14. #754
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,695

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Same here, I take shots of my bees & they take no interest in the camera at all.

    I think what's going on with the bees in the video, is you have someone dressed head to toe in white, pointing and waving a black object at the bees. That of course will be the focus, same as if they'd waved a black rag, or whatever.

    Particularly once the object has been "scented", it's going to be the focus of attention. Just like when angry bees find that little rip in your trousers. Once it's been found and marked, that's where the bees attacking you are going to be focussing.

    Housel? Schmousel.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #755
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,097

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    So, we have moved this Thread from are there and can there be successful Commercially run beekeeping operations that are Treatment Free to Dees' Bees, what they are like and how they act. Whether AHB or not.

    So, what is the consensus of opinion about Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers? Are they real? Are Comm. TF operations something that is practical, affordable, doable? Is it the future? I know we have been presented w/ a handful of examples. Is it something I could do? Or Michael Palmer? Opinions?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  16. #756
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,240

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    well,
    yes
    depends
    perhaps
    yes
    yes
    all over the place.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #757

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    So, we have moved this Thread from are there and can there be successful Commercially run beekeeping operations that are Treatment Free to Dees' Bees, what they are like and how they act. Whether AHB or not.
    I don't think it is off topic. Dee has been offered up as a treatment free commercial beekeeper. There appears to be considerable opinion that her success, if you can call it that, is probably a result of keeping AHB.
    In part, the answer to your question is....one way to be a treatment free commercial beekeeper is to choose to keep AHB in Arizona.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  18. #758
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,097

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Okay. I agree that what we have seen is ilustrative and interesting. Maybe my wording wasn't right. Conversations move around sometimes.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  19. #759

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Conversations move around sometimes.
    It'd get pretty dull if they didn't, I'm thinkin'.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  20. #760
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,242

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    Mike, do you think that when bees draw comb in nature, without foundation, that there is an order to the cell orientation? What do the combs and cells look likein a natural hive?
    Ramona
    I don't know, you tell me. I guess they do. Why wouldn't they?

    But as far as Houseling positions goes...Bologna! You show me a central comb and the combs to the side of that one being oriented differently.

    Have you got a central comb to show?

    Sorry, but I listened to Dees explanation on why Houseling is so important. I don't buy it...shelves on the bottom of the incorrectly houseled comb that causes the colony to supersede?? Think about it.

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