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Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

144K views 845 replies 56 participants last post by  Tim Ives 
#1 ·
A few years ago Ted K and I entered into a wager, that within 15 years even commercial beekeepers would be treatment free. In light of some comments made on the "unwritten rules..." thread about the impact of treatments on queens, I was wondering:

Are any commercial beekeepers experimenting with an apiary or so the possibilities of going treatment free? I realize it is an economic impossibility to risk your whole operation, but is anyone testing the possibilities with a small portion of your operation?
Regards,
Steven
 
#363 ·
>Puts me in mind of that Arizona treatment free beekeeper who continues to propagate those excessively defensive, year-round broody, swarmy, absconding, usurping, nonproductive….mite tolerant bees.

Hmm... I must not know that person. The only one I know in AZ is Dee and hers produce about 20 barrels of honey a year with very little work on Dee's part per hive. The kind of bees you describe would be a lot of work...
 
#371 ·
lets talk about these guys then, if they are there, actually managing commercial treatment free operations,

Two points I have gotten from this discussion,

#1 dont know what disease levels are in treatment free operations discussed here, because it doesnt matter

#2 use breeding to be able to manage treatment free operations

I cant hang my hat on those two points. I also know of a survival project here that does not make any of the claims made by keepers here, and they full disclose their operations.

like I said before, because I do not accept blind faith, does not mean Im discrediting whats said. Answer some questions
listing beekeepers names who commercially keep treatment free is awesome, as it shows beekeepers doing it, but if thats all you give me here in this forum, that is all I can take that information at, names
 
#373 ·
...but if thats all you give me here in this forum, that is all I can take that information at, names
Exactly....now, what other aspects of beekeeping do you really want to know about that you would simply forget about if not fully explained to you in all details on beesource?

What do you want to know? What answers will you accept? What will you claim is "blind faith"?

deknow
 
#374 ·
absolutely, seeing things first hand is what we need to do, and much the reason we hold yearly conventions and such.

for the sake of this forum discussion, lets assume I cant go down to where ever these guys work, nor would I want to bother them.
so lets take what we know from their example and talk about it. You brought their names up, and you say you talk on this subject, so deknow ( the only name I can put to you ) lets dig deeper,..
 
#375 ·
>then can you speak in behalf of these guys?

Dee's work is on here and on her web site, and has been observed by several of us.
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/

Kirk has published his methods in the bee journals and those articles have been put online.
www.kirkwebster.com

I think their writing speaks for itself.

>#1 dont know what disease levels are in treatment free operations discussed here, because it doesnt matter

Well, you CAN know what mine are. They are measured by the bee inspector every year:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm

> Mites invariably build up as the season progresses.

Actually, that has not been my experience. They build up some early in the spring and drop off all summer into the fall in small cell hives... very little of the worker brood ever gets infested.

>I think if we are able to dig deeper into these operation we will find mite management at some point of their yearly hive work

Not in my operation nor, in my experience, others who have been listed whose operations I've seen, such as Dee, or Kirk. Of course some will say making splits is Varroa control. No doubt anything you do has an affect, but to not split to prevent swarms would be mismangament, in my view, and I don't think I make any more or less than other people. While it may be true that my home yard is being manipulated for queen rearing, and that probably has more of an effect, the rest of my yards are just managed as usual.
 
#376 ·
this is a commercial forum so we have to assume many of us ride on the coat tail of our banker

tell me how I can take my 1000 hives, manage them from April to October, through a month long splitting, through a three month honey flow, and prepare them for winter without considering disease as the foundation to my management strategy. Nosema, varroa mite, AFB, viral loads, pesticide,
What breeding efforts am I going to have to tap into that will give me the ability to put these thoughts out of mind,
 
#378 ·
I have adopted a nuc strategy in my operation. I will manage a large number of nucs for the following season, and using hygenic queens, and even so, I have to slap those mites down at least one time of the year with Oxalic or chem to allow for satisfactory wintering. Thats not considering nosema either
 
#388 ·
I have to slap those mites down at least one time of the year with Oxalic or chem to allow for satisfactory wintering.
You ask how to do it, and here is the key. It's the threshold for satisfactory one time, or two time losses.

Dee reported about a 90% loss (of 1000) over a couple years, but that was with extremely stressful shakedowns. I experienced 75% (of 20, not a totally insignificant number) over five years, but I did no shakedowns. Later when I moved, I experienced a fresh 66% loss as the bees were not acclimatized but I can not necessarily fault disease in that case. At any rate, losses have consistently diminished since then, 9% last year, 4% this year.

My point is this: If one is not willing to lose bees for at least one winter and probably three and split back from it, one will probably not be successful with treatment-free. It seems to me that commercials are approaching the treatment-free idea from the same perspective that newbees usually do. "I'm just going to skip treatments and expect the same results." Just the other day I read about a guy who kept some treatment-free nucs and a bunch of them died, so now he's going to treat. Why? That's like taking three steps up the stair case and giving up and taking the elevator because ya didn't get to the top! And no one is going to sell you the queens that are going to do it for you. You have to make your own. No one sells a migratory treatment-free queen....yet, and again I hold out hope.

On the other hand, a more consistent approach is one I hear from some other newbees, usually the ones I meet in person, which is "if I have to treat, I'm not going to keep bees." They go in with the correct frame of mind and they seem to come out better and more successful for it.

Yes, if you stop treating, some bees are going to die. It's not a speed bump, it is the road. The destination is a sustainable population with an acceptable loss rate.




Sam Comfort enlightened me the other day. He said something to the effect of: "this guy is the perfect example of somebody who took Dee's method and ran with it." Maybe it worked, maybe it didn't, but with so many factors in the equation, how do you tell?
 
#379 ·
Ian, I'm reluctant to enter into this if you aren't willing to read what Kirk and Dee have written (Dee's writing can be difficult, I'm happy to help you with anything you are having difficulties understanding...but they are here on beesource under POV).

We've now gone from the "there are none" mantra of 300+ posts, to "tell me how to manage my bees and my debt load with the bank". Honestly, i'm not trying to be evasive, I just don't think you are going to believe anything I tell you. I would have thought Chris's contributions would have answered some questions.

deknow
 
#382 ·
Ian, I'm reluctant to enter into this if you aren't willing to read what Kirk and Dee have written
what ever you feel comfortable with. I have read into those websites and leaves me with questions,
I guess bind faith is pretty much part and parcel of this management strategy
definetly admire the work of these beekeepers, cant translate it into my operation management yet

Chris came aboard , and made his claim, and made a brief explanation. Cheers to that,
questions that came from that were left un answered. And the discussion was left at that.
 
#380 · (Edited)
I think Kirk is a better example than Dee. I would never have those Africanized bees that Dean posted videos of. Also she is very evasive about her yields and whether the hives are profitable. There is no doubt in my mind that Kirk has a sustainable apiary that is no treat. And I classify him as a commercial. And he has written extensively on his methods and ideas. http://kirkwebster.com/
 
#385 ·
Cam, I don't recall a P&L statement from you for your pollination, nuc resales, and honey production...where do I find that?
I have never claimed to be a commercial beekeeper making my living off the bees. In fact I'm still in the red as I expand. I read with interest Dee's assertions on another forum and her failure to back up those claims. I haven't seen Kirk's P&L either but I have no doubt that he makes his living from his bees. Haven't seen your P&L statement either Dean. You post yours and I'll post mine!
 
#387 ·
The only evidence there is that Kirk is being truthful and Dee isn't is that Allen accused Dee of being untruthful. You can take Allen's word for it, or you can take Dee's. Only one of them actually has data to base their assertion upon.

deknow
 
#389 ·
thats the whole point Slolomon, loss after loss after loss. So, if its just about breeding the survivors, why is it that the queens that I buy from my closest survivor project still have a threshold where I need to knock the mites down.
Instant genetic change over, better mite tolerance I hope, but still climbing mite counts. Throw some nucing in there, keep the hives going. But I still need to build those big hives to bring in the honey. Those hives fail if mite levels climb.
anyway we are talking in circles, good luck in your beekeeping operations this season
 
#390 ·
So, if its just about breeding the survivors, why is it that the queens that I buy from my closest survivor project still have a threshold where I need to knock the mites down.
I know nothing about the project or your threshold and so cannot comment. All I can do is relate my experience and what I do is hard Bond method and quickly my losses came to be more than acceptable.
 
#396 ·
Gee.. it really is pretty hard for TF and non-TF beekeepers to have a conversation for very long. I for one an still interested in establishing a TF yard.... not convert everything.... but just one yard. So I am naturally interested in the operations of TF Commercials and how they function. Since Dee Lusby always comes up - I wonder if she bottles and retails those 20 barrels of honey.... seems like it would be pretty hard to make a go of it on a $26,000.00 Gross (Bulk Sales). Of course she may sell queens, nucs, package bees for all I know.... I bet Deknow knows.... :)
 
#401 ·
we run 600-700 colonies. Our bees are mongrels,queens are from a breeder that started with 18 lines of hygenic bees.but they are the best performing bees i have seen in years. They produce honey( when there is a flow ) like the bees used to when we first started in the 80's. Still have to treat.Our best hives made 6 mediums of fall honey this year to harvest.We have tried most of the advertized resistant queens on the market over the years. they all die from the mite/virus loads if left untreated,sooner or later. We worked in a coop with jack Griffis and the Honeybee Improvement program in Mi. back in the 90's breeding from our untreated THRIVING 2 year survivors and AI breeding them with drones from the same program. We spent a lot of time(4 years) and money and still had dead bees. No silver bullet.



Mites are always an issue and need some type of treatment whether it is different styles of management, chems or organic acids etc. I may be going out on a limb, but there is really no such thing as a mite resistant bee.Some are more resistant to the viruses ie;russians,as they tend to last longer before the viruses kill them as opposed to other stocks.They still have plenty of mites and seem to manage them ( reduce the mite load) better by being a very swarmy bee.We ran 100 colonies of relatively pure russians a few years ago and this was my observation.



I spent some time in the mountains of Nepal 2 summers ago and worked apis cerana cerana and apis cerana indica with a missionary friend who lived in the remote village of Jumla in the mountains. The bees were kept in topbar/log hives and swarming was actually looked forward to. the hives usually only make 2-3 KG of honey per year surplus and the beeks were excited for swarms to increase production and hive numbers. At the time I was there we witnessed some colonies sucumbing to PMS and crashing, just like ours do when left untreated. This appeared to be due to the weather patterns and bloom, there was almost NO swarming for the normal period that swarms usually issue. We used apistan to try to save this farmers hives. Most of the commercial beeks there (50 colony ave.) kill all the queens after the flow and put in a sprig of artemesia plant( a relative of wormwood that contains essential oils that repel and kill mites). So the bees are treated for mites during a queenless /broodless period.

They also have an insect called a psudo-scorpion that lives in the crevices in a hive and you can actually see them eat mites. These bees do not propolize the cracks and the scorpions have a place to live.



My question is how can we say that this bee ( apis cerana) which, is the native host of varroa, is resistant to mites? It seems that the management( swarming) and the psudo scorpions normally control the mite populations. Why would the natives treat with artemesia and kill queens to reduce the mite populations it they were naturally resistant.



I am not against non treatment and would LOVE to not treat myself, but when your paycheck depends on your bees making honey, you hafta do what is necessary. Dead bees dont make honey. We use formic in early may,late july to have healthy bees going into fall so the winter bees are not heavily mite laden. A fall only treatment is too late as the bees raised in the early fall are already weakened and those need to survive till spring broodrearing.

lots to consider
Nick

Virgil NY _Not spring here yet
 
#402 ·
I started from scratch in March of 2009, totally treatment free and on small cell, screened bottoms w/top entrances. I bought hygienic queens from different sources for genetic diversity. The colonies I bought were all on large cell but I quickly [within a few months] converted them to small cells by dropping small cell frames in between the large cells and as the small cell frames were drawn out I removed the large cells. After my first 2 years, I covered my costs of all my bees, queens, and equipment purchased, including 20 frame extractor, uncapping plane etc, even kept up with my gas expense. But, of course I am small time and don’t count; and this was during a time of severe drought here in Texas.

Last year, I had my greatest losses. Moved my bees to west Texas on sunflowers with the bee coordinator telling me that they don’t spray, while we are standing there ¼ mile off a plane is spraying sunflowers. Then he tells me they only spray early in the morning or late in the evening when the bees aren’t out. He is telling me this at about 10:30 a.m. while we are standing there watching the plane spray the sunflowers, needless to say I moved my bees back several hundred miles to a friends house until we found irrigated cotton in that same area that the farmer assured us wasn’t getting sprayed. I went with 16 colonies, and brought home only 13, all with low bee populations. I lost down to 9 before I could get them built back up for winter. So, I guess I can say from experience that moving [migrating] all over the State is hard on bees, even treatment free bees. All 9 of those came through the winter, but one was queenless but still had a good bee population. I have still cleared several thousand more than I have invested.

I have now split to 17, and hope to split more and sale 15-20 colonies this year and produce 600-1000# of honey as I have a local market for that much honey, and I clear a whole lot more than the wholesale price of $2.00 per pound. I have sold 10 double deep colonies over the last 2 years, all treatment free, and those I have sold them to have only suffered 1 loss [cause of loss unknown, but I suspect they starved during the drought], all treatment free. I wouldn’t consider myself commercial but I am not doing this for the fun of it either; but rather, I do it to earn money to at least help provide for my needs.

I have had a few losses over the past 4 years, but my greatest losses were covered above while moving my bees all over Texas during the drought last year. Of course I am not materialistically inclined, and having food and raiment I try to be content [I Tim. 6:8].

Can this be done on a commercial scale, apparently as Chris Baldwin, Dee Lusby, Michael Bush and others are doing. But don’t try to fit my methods and needs into your category because I don’t know that I would want to live my life in your shoes, nor would you probably want to live yours in mine. My life is somewhat like a boxing match, I try to roll with the punches, and if I get knocked down, I try to get back up and avoid that same left hook next time. But I won't treat my colonies although I will use management techniques that enhance my chance of success, whatever that might be, other than chemical treatments.

Kindest regards
Danny Unger
 
#403 ·
A few thoughts...

1. When I'm choosing my friends and picking people to do business with, like everyone, I pick those that I think are most likely to take any personal and business information I tell them, or they figure out/come across in the course of our relationship....and post it all over the internet.

2. When I have questions about something I read, instead of asking the author or someone else who might know the answers to the specific questions I have, I find it's more productive and a better use of everyone's time to simply ask a third party to explain the whole thing to me _without_ letting them know what my understanding is based upon what I've read. The best part about this approach is that it doesn't require that I actually read the things I say I read, and I can criticize the person I'm asking for not answering the questions I never asked.

3. Just as Dee's P&L, production numbers, and tax returns should be publicly available for everyone who doesn't share such things to critique, Michael's electronic medical records should also be open for public scrutiny.

deknow
 
#405 ·
But, Dean, you claimed no one was interested, so I asked.

Do you believe that Bob Brachmann is a treatment free commercial beekeeper? I will speak to Bob myself for details about his management practices. But I would think that you would be able to answer the question as to whether you believe he is treatment free or not.

Solomon,
I know only one person who you consider a commercial beekeeper who can walk away from their bees for two years and still maintain a commercial status.
 
#406 ·
I expect I know quite a bit more about Dee's production than Michael does. I also expect that those beekeepers posting here expect their friends and associates to keep confidential information confidential.

You can trust me to tell the truth. You can't expect me to post about everything I know from every source. You can also expect me to keep a confidence confidential.

deknow
 
#411 ·
Solomon, what you don't seem to want to acknowledge, or maybe don't understand, is how seriously we commercial beekeepers depend on our bees health and productivity for our livelihood. This is no hobby. I'm not sure of Michael Bush's bees, but our bees MUST pay for insurance, and the utilities and all the food and gas and any other living expenses we have. We buy our own health insurance. We pay for our children's education. We buy our own retirement funds. If the bees don't pay for it, it doesn't get bought.

well put sheri. deknow, you have a good point as well.

Bob Brachmann is a good friend of mine and he is treatment free. From the outside looking in( MY personal opinion)his treatment free management of the russians is due to selling lots of nucs and the continous splitting keeps the mite loads manageable for the russian lines.Maybe Mark can clarify when he speaks with Bob. Same management as a few others in upstate that have treatment free operations.These are not on a 1000 hive plus operations.

It can be done, but special management or treatments are required.
Nick:digging:
 
#424 ·
the outside looking in( MY personal opinion)his treatment free management of the russians is due to selling lots of nucs and the continous splitting keeps the mite loads manageable for the russian lines.
I split but my splits don't go queenless for any length of time. I keep hearing this and wondering how splitting would lower the mite load? Many and maybe most who split to sell those splits have already raised or will be shortly purchasing queens for those splits. I realize virgins are placed in breeding nucs, but after the queens are laying aren't they generally just combined with a split. There would be little if any break in the brood activity. I am making splits now to sell and I want a queen shortly after the split. But that wouldn't/doesn't break the mite cycle does it?
 
#414 ·
Ian, I would love to take over management of your hives. As you may remember, I started out wanting to be a commercial beekeeper. I have ten years of experience keeping bees and I feel that I would be a valuable asset to your operation. Please contact me via PM to discuss compensation.
 
#418 ·
>>>The "secret" is that if you want to be treatment free, you have to make it a priority. There are many ways to accomplish this....but it isn't going to happen by accident.<<<

Yes, that holds true to alot of what we do as business owners,
it is what separates us from the day jobers

but as many day jobers will tell you, sometimes they can want something so desperately and not get it because it simply is not just that easy.
 
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