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  1. #621
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Maybe…but you do understand tense? Are = present tense Were = past tense
    Allen used the present tense....
    Hmmmmm, no matter how much help she has….several hundred to me means around three hundred."
    This is the problem. You are trying to have an argument with me about something you misunderstood Allen say ...and it's something that I actually know about. But either you think my wife and I "mistook" 300 hives for 700-800 hives through 7 visits _and_ that Allen visited Dee recently but I just don't know about it, or you think I am making things up.

    Email Allen and ask him when he was there last, how many hives he thinks she has now, and what he bases that number upon. Figure it out.

    Errr, speaking of 'honest mistakes'.
    ...
    Michael Palmer January 18, 2013
    Well that's not true. I know Dean, and have talked with him about his
    filming incident. Dean told me that there were so many stingers in his
    [I]sneakers that you couldn't tell what color they were.
    Well, I'll cut Mike some slack cause he's my buddy, and I understand that that far North the air gets pretty thin...(sorry Ian ).
    That's almost, sorta, kinda true...but certainly not an honest presentation of the facts.

    I was dressed in an inspectors jacket (a wedding present from Dee...remember, this was a working wedding honeymoon...we got Dee an online ordination and she married us in the desert....was there something in this thread about a "normal lifestyle"?), white painters pants from walmart, and some brown woven nylon hiking boots.

    Let's just say, the boots didn't go over too well with the bees. I still have one of the boots...I'll try to photograph it.

    The bees were crazy for the camera (someone suggested the bees might think I was stealing their souls) and the boots.

    They would cling to the inside of the ladies legs (there are a few crotch smoking shots in the videos...remember, these were unedited and unprepared...we were just going through yards and after a few days, I felt like I could try to narrate what was going on). Also, if you are going to watch these, please not that smoke is hardly used, except on us.

    Once we started to tear through a yard, we would have bees in the air and around our veils...no clinging. I won't say I didn't get a few stings in a day, but it was louder than anything else.

    So, after the first two days, I showed Dee my boots, and she dug into a closet and pulled out a pair of white leather sneakers....from a backpack she found, dropped by an illegal being chased by border patrol...in my size. Problem solved, no more ankle biting.

    Every time I go back, my shoes are there....but I wear a different pair (also found in a backpack)...why? I stopped getting stung, but I got an itchy foot fungus! (I know, TMI, but it is what happened).

    So, that is the story of the shoes....and they were covered. If you look at the pictures from our recent trip, you will see that they are still crazy for the camera, as Anita was there, so I could photograph a photographer.

    Mike, we would love to have you back down south where the air is thicker, and you can recharge your braincells at the NETFBC. Do tell them how we fed you, treated you, and got you in front of a young, receptive and enthusiastic audience who were eager to LISTEN (well, Dee didn't like seeing that sugar in the hive..).

    But it's ok you didn't tell them about the foot fungus, I don't think I told you that part


    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  2. #622
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,864

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Well, I'll cut Mike some slack cause he's my buddy, and I understand that that far North the air gets pretty thin...(sorry Ian ).
    That's almost, sorta, kinda true...but certainly not an honest presentation of the facts.
    ha ha ha the air is not thin, just **** COLD

    I guess I'll just raise my eyebrow a bit, make a semi serious expression on my face and shrug my shoulders,
    just as everyone else did, put that elephant back into the corner of the room
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  3. #623
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Grey County, ON, Canada
    Posts
    101

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Gotta bear in mind that temperament is pretty much as important as honey production in my books... That's not saying I won't requeen a hive that's never stung me and doesn't make a decent amount of honey but who wants to get nailed every time they enter a yard? I do 90% of my supering in a t shirt and save the suit for splitting and pulling honey... Don't think I'd be ready to give that up

  4. #624
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,599

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    The same day that I told Mike the shoe story (which he misremembered in telling on Bee-L), he told me a story about a bee club that tossed a vendor out of a meeting....because the vendor was gay and the club was homophobic.

    A sad story if true...but the _real_ story is that the club doesn't allow vendors at all...the vendor was told this when he asked to setup, he setup anyways, and was kicked out like any other vendor would be. I have firsthand knowledge of the incident and the club rules and practices.

    I'm sure Mike didn't make that story up...but it doesn't make it true. It doesn't serve the truth to spread it.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  5. #625
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    dennison MN
    Posts
    108

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    there seems to be a common connection between commercial farmers and commercial beekeepers and i do know both very well. this whole chemical thing is so sad. i here from farmers well if i dont spray and use gmo seed and neo nic seed i wont get a good crop and my family will not eat.

    and so comm. beeks say if i dont treat for mites, and when i say treat i mean use a chemical not soft but harsh, the bees will die and my family will not eat.

    what i see both have in common is this. we are both only helping the weak survive. in nature it is only the strong survive. i dont see it any other way. we all got here because the strongest survived and the weak died. now that humans control everything on this planet all we do is help weak things survive a little bit longer. and we just keep breeding weaker and weaker everything. i mean people animals bees plants. i think that is the big message that guys like chris baldwin are trying to get across you have to only run the strong. not help the weak along untill they cant be helped anymore.

    as a young commercial beek starting out trust me i need to eat just like you and i will do what i have too to eat but i will not turn my head away to any one that is trying to make the world a better place after they leave. i can only hope i can run my bees like chris someday with out chemicals and see that the bees are surviving because it works for them not me.

    i really liked his quote. in the end you take nothing with you when you go and your supposed to leave the world a better place. i think he is some one that just might be doing that. thanks chis baldwin.


    mike feist age 28, commercial beek 8 years strong. 400 my own hives still working for a 2000 hive outfit.
    Last edited by mnbeekeeper; 04-01-2013 at 06:50 AM.

  6. #626
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,791

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    So Mike, are you treatment free? I'm not sure from what you wrote. If so, I look forward to hearing your story of growth over the next 5 to 10 years.

    Best wishes.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #627
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    In this Thread, wasn't the AFB question sourced from Allen's comments on Bee-L? I have read a number of times, from Solomon if I recall correctly, that Dee doesn't treat for AFB and when she finds it she leaves it alone if it is a small number of cells. I guess she must burn those hives w/ higher numbers of cells of AFB. Not that I know. Is that your understanding Dean?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #628
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    dennison MN
    Posts
    108

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    like i said i have to eat too. but my point was im not turning my head to the idea tf commercial is possible and actually i really hope i can some day get there. im not trying to stoke the fire. i just wanted to say im young and in the business and i hope to pursue what methods chris baldwin is using in his outfit. because i think its better than sitting on the same old wagon going down the same old road. and yes im on that wagon now but im one of the few just waiting for my chance to jump off. and thats how things change its that small percent of people willing to try something new or make a difference.

  9. #629
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Thanks and Good Luck.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #630
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,599

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I've seen AFB in Dee's operation, and posted about it here on beesource many times (this is a problem with the search function...it won't look for 3 letter words like AFB or VSH).
    It is the characterization that it is a "problem" that I'm calling you on.

    What I've seen (and I've been through everything in her operation more than once, most of it 6-7 times in the last 6 years) is something between 1-2% AFB (never seen more than one in a year).

    No antibiotics. No differentiation between brood and honey frames. Boxes and combs move from yard to yard as part of the harvest.

    Less than 6 cells of scale on a comb and it stays where it is...with the bees. More infection than that gets culled/burned....but tossed in the back of the truck like everything else (this made Sam Comfort visibly, "unComfotable").

    No burning hives.

    If AFB were a problem in this situation, her bees would all be dead.

    So, what is the "problem" we are supposed to have heard about?

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  11. #631
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by mnbeekeeper View Post
    i here from farmers well if i dont spray and use gmo seed and neo nic seed i wont get a good crop and my family will not eat.
    Well, ya,
    lets get some treatment free wheat farmers and talk about their hardships too! There are many, but like the treatment free beekeepers it aint as rosey as many people would like to think
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #632
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by mnbeekeeper View Post
    i just wanted to say im young and in the business and i hope to pursue what methods chris baldwin is using in his outfit. because i think its better than sitting on the same old wagon going down the same old road.
    and what methods is that exactly,? breeding?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  13. #633
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Less than 6 cells of scale on a comb and it stays where it is...with the bees. More infection than that gets culled/burned....but tossed in the back of the truck like everything else (this made Sam Comfort visibly, "unComfotable").

    No burning hives.

    If AFB were a problem in this situation, her bees would all be dead.

    deknow
    yes, I have also read her talk about handling AFB in this manner on another site,
    AFB is a taboo topic so thought it would be best not to discuss it,

    seems to me she has picked a threshold level, where as 6 scales or more , the comb is out. How did she come up with that criteria ?
    Very interesting indeed, Id say she is a bold woman, but like deknow mentioned, her hives are still thriving
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #634
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    most operations AFB criteria is one scale and its out, around here anyway
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #635
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,599

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Not only is it taboo (I've been criticized for talking about this before), but to characterize someone as having an AFB "problem" is a serious allegation. When it turns out that, like Mike's glass of wine being characterized as a "drinking problem", that there is no "problem", it is the accuser that looks silly.

    I daresay the majority of commercial beekeepers in the US would love to have a 1-2% AFB "problem" that doesn't grow, and doesn't require antibiotics and detective work (to find "the source") and hive burning to control.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  16. #636
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    So, we are not allowed to discuss AFB on beesource? Or are y'all refering to the Beekeeping Community at large? I've never had a problem discussing AFB or telling my AFB story.

    Hi, my name is Mark and I have AFB.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  17. #637
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I agree, if everyone could get past the taboo part of these discussion, I think understanding the "whys" in the management practices might be more so accepted,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  18. #638
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    Jun 2010
    Location
    dennison MN
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    108

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    i guess im willing to take on some hard ships for a greater outcome. its to easy to sit there and say ya that wont work. it seems that is the biggest difference in all of the conversations is some people want to play it safe and do what works and some people want to venture out experiment and see if there is another way.

  19. #639
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I should also add that we do use Dee's honey to feed our bees if/when we feed them (we had a barrel of honey damaged in shipment, and was able to convince the insurance company to let us keep it for bee feed rather than them tossing it into a dumpster)...we also have scraps and such from every barrel...so, not just one batch has been fed to our bees.

    We have never had a case of AFB. The state apiarist knows that we do this, has inspected our bees, and sees no problem...his conclusion is that the honey is "clean"...whatever that means.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  20. #640
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    >>>i guess im willing to take on some hard ships for a greater outcome

    that doesnt answer the question on how Chris is managing his bees treatment free,
    if that is the model to follow, how is he able to achieve a sustainable 1800 hive commercial pollination and honey operation? While everyone elses ops SEEM to be falling apart,.?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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