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Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

144K views 845 replies 56 participants last post by  Tim Ives 
#1 ·
A few years ago Ted K and I entered into a wager, that within 15 years even commercial beekeepers would be treatment free. In light of some comments made on the "unwritten rules..." thread about the impact of treatments on queens, I was wondering:

Are any commercial beekeepers experimenting with an apiary or so the possibilities of going treatment free? I realize it is an economic impossibility to risk your whole operation, but is anyone testing the possibilities with a small portion of your operation?
Regards,
Steven
 
#280 ·
Hey were all shooting for a 200+ lb. average but I am thrilled if I can eke out 100 though. The recently released 2012 honey report showed a national average of 56 lbs.
 
#281 ·
Hey I have not read all of this. And really do not know how this works but....
I run 1800 colonies without mite treatment. Last hard chemicals 2003. Oxalic 2004 and 05.
Some apigaurd 2007. Match my neighbors crops. Send bees toalmonds. In forty years
have NEVER bought outside bees other than breeder queens.
All you nonbelievers - it can be done. I keep bees like I did pre-mites.
 
#283 · (Edited)
I have not done an ether roll since 2004. When I see a mite I say "Oh, a mite". I don't care. Its genetics. When I said I keep bees like pre-mites I meant exactly that.
And I am tired of being called crazy or a liar. I have spoken to, had supper with, drank a beer with many of the top names in bee research and never, not one has said they would like to see my operation. I guess I might endanger their job security. Bob Reiners SD State Apiarist is the only one. I think he believes. I am just one guy. I wish the whole industry would get on board and believe. And demand the queen breeders get to work on it.
 
#290 ·
And lots of guys that treat are doing a whole lot better.
30% is totally unacceptable.
30% 0f 1800 is 540 hives that you are proud to lose every year?
That is $81,000.00 of lost revenue in almonds alone!!?
None of this makes any rational sense to me.
And your overuse of the words, "believe" and "belief" is unusual for the context.
No one is calling you a liar. But maybe you are forgetting; we keep bees too!
We wern't born yesterday.
If it sounds too good to be true.....
 
#291 ·
Chris: Glad you are joining the discussion. In fairness to Chris I don't think the question is so much how much revenue he may be losing each year by not treating but whether he is self sustaining and whether he is happy with and able to live off of the revenue stream that his bees provide. Please give us more specifics as far as your management practices as a fellow South Dakota migratory beekeeper my mind is open but I would like to hear more specific information. I would also like to hear exactly why you have chosen this route. Do you feel it is only possible to produce as pure product by never treating or do you feel that your bees are better off in the long run or is it both? Just tell your story and state your case Chris this forum is usually a little long on theory and a little short on actual working experience so don't be offended when folks in the business ask hard questions.
 
#294 ·
Ha ha Solomon, that was funny!

Chris spoke at the 2011 Northeast Treatment-Free Beekeeping Conference in Leominster. He gave a great talk on the history and management of his operation, spent a week with us and our attendees sharing and talking non-stop. There was one day post-conference when we let him take a nap.

We had one disgruntled attendee who wondered why we let the commercial migratory guy in. Sometimes you just have to laugh...

Ramona
 
#293 ·
I don't remember what managing bees premites was like, other than not managing mites. There aught to be a list of details. Maybe people don't know how to express what it is they do.

I was talking to a VT beekeeper a cpl days ago, face to face, and he said that Michael Palmer, another VT beekeeper, has been having trouble finding mites. Perhaps Michael's "secret" is stationary beekeeping, growing his own queens, and nucing colonies in July for overwintering to cover winterloss.

Is Chris doing these things too?
 
#306 ·
It wouldn't even occur to me. I don't think our attendees would find such a presentation helpful towards their goals. I don't think I would find it very inspiring towards my own.

In fairness to Ron, he is doing his thing, and I can't say I have a problem with that...and although there is a lot of tongue in cheek claiming of "treatment free" from his model, I don't think anyone really believes that. There is nothing sustainable about such a system without the constant influx of relatively cheap package bees from the south (ask Ian how the lack of availability of package bees from the south has affected his management).

deknow
 
#304 ·
Mark: Chris is treatment free migratory. He runs between South Dakota and Texas and goes to Caifornia to pollinate the almonds. Mike Palmer is not treatment free. He has spoken at our conferences as well and is incredibly generous in sharing his beekeeping knowledge and experience toward developing an apiary with minimal inputs.

Jim: Chris is your neighbor in SD and maybe even Texas. You could visit him and see what he does. He's really friendly and a lot of fun.

Ramona
 
#305 ·
It's a simple question Mark. Do you get 200 lbs of honey from a package generally? I don't. It would stand to reason that since the bees aren't overwintered, they never have to use much of their stores, and a major portion of anything going in is going to be coming back out. Dean has well documented the volume of syrup in honey. This isn't speculation or slander, this is evidence based inquiry.
 
#315 ·
Except for the "heatwave on your birthday" part it probably sounds familiar because the scenario is familiar. No treatments-bees die-breed back from the survivors.

We went to see Tim Ives in New Jersey last Friday. He talked about his treatment free history and referred to a survivor colony as his "$3500" hive. He caught swarms from that hive and after some time brought them to breed with an old beekeepers bees who had been treatment free for some years. He now runs 120 hives in Indiana in the middle of corn and soy. His big emphasis is three deeps going into winter packed with honey and no artificial feeds
ever . He is on my list of operations I would like to visit to see for myself.

Ramona
 
#313 ·
When we were trying to keep bees without treatments we sought out the biggest treatment free beekeeper we could find and ended up in Arizona with Dee Lusby. We got to see with our own eyes what everyone had told us was impossible. Having that model has given us the courage and vision to deal with our own losses as we are building our bees. Many folks have plenty to say about Dee but we have been to Arizona to see her bees seven times now and no one can tell me that her bees aren't real or that we are imagining the honey they produce.

I challenge anyone to meet Chris and tell him to his face that he is a liarabout any aspect of his bees or operation.

"Seek and ye shall find". There are multiple models out there for anyone who really wants the information but everyone is different in their goals, aspirations, values and beliefs, preferences and circumstances.

Arguing or debating about what someone is or isn't doing doesn't affect what the doer is actually doing. I much prefer to go to the sources and see for myself.

Yes, there are all kinds of obstacles...time, money, family, job, etc. When you really want something, you figure it out. Or at least you figure out what you really want :)

Ramona
 
#333 ·
I challenge anyone to meet Chris and tell him to his face that he is a liarabout any aspect of his bees or operation.

Ramona
Now that would be just plain rude, dontcha think? Chris has been asked to explain what he does and how he does it and all we have gotten from him, as far as I can recall, is "just like I did before mites." Which doesn't tell us much. I'd like to hear some details from Chris. To see if what he does might fit my management style, not to cut him down.
 
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