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  1. #241
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    dennison MN
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    106

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    I believe he would qualify as a TF commercial, using your definition. He;s on here a fair amount so maybe just searching "Householder" or is it "Honey Householder"..... either ought to work.

    but that opens another can of worms. because i believe any one that was willing to work hard could bring in packages in the spring make a crop and shake them out in the fall. i mean sure its hard work but its not the hardest part of commercial beekeeping. i think surviving winter and working the bees accordingly in the spring is the hardest part. where are his treatment free bees now. dead in a snowbank or dead in some elses beeyard or alive but treated with something in some one elses boxes. where did he get those packages from treated bees i would have to think. maybe im wrong.

  2. #242
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,225

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Roland, the answer is in your post. You treat for mites. No disrespect, it's right in there.

    In my book, no means no and free means free. No treatments equals treatment free. That's no indictment against anyone. It just is.
    Symantics. Roland does treat for mites in the true sense of the word, he manages his mites through a manual control method. Or does treatment free mean "does nothing" to manage mites? Because, if so, then Honey Householders method would be treating to and he doesn't use chemicals.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #243
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,225

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    I believe he would qualify as a TF commercial, using your definition. He;s on here a fair amount so maybe just searching "Householder" or is it "Honey Householder"..... either ought to work.
    I disagree Herb. By Solomon's definition it seems unless one does nothing one is treating. So, getting rid of (selling) all the insects and arachnids in a hive would be a treatment.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  4. #244
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    2,919

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I disagree Herb. By Solomon's definition it seems unless one does nothing one is treating. So, getting rid of (selling) all the insects and arachnids in a hive would be a treatment.
    Guess I need to go back and read Solomon's definition of TF. Solomon was willing to let me feed HFCS and still be TF....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  5. #245
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    The definition of 'semantics' is taking the individual meanings of words rather than the meaning of the overall passage. So no, Mark, not semantics. The meaning of the passage is: he treats. He said he does.

    Honey Householder doesn't count because he doesn't fit the definition of 'keeping bees' in my view. There's no sustainability there. Keeping bees would involve keeping them all the time. He seems to regularly throw them away. As far as I understand, keeping is the opposite of throwing away.

    I also haven't heard that he migrates.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  6. #246
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    By Solomon's definition it seems unless one does nothing one is treating.
    Nothing for disease. I still keep bees in the usual manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Guess I need to go back and read Solomon's definition of TF. Solomon was willing to let me feed HFCS and still be TF....
    Good luck, it's not written down. If you are referring to the official definition in the TF forum, that was not my definition. I wrote it, got it voted on, passed, and amended and finalized it. It was politics. That's the way the world works. It was a well crafted compromise that the majority could vote for and agree was a step in the right direction. I have been clear from the beginning that I am a purist and that I believe the responsibility for handling disease and pesticides is up to the bees and the bees alone. And that includes not only chemical methods, but mechanical ones including striking drone brood, screened bottom boards, and breaking the brood cycle. I do none of these things.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  7. #247
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    2,919

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Honey Householder doesn't count because he doesn't fit the definition of 'keeping bees' in my view. There's no sustainability there. Keeping bees would involve keeping them all the time. He seems to regularly throw them away. As far as I understand, keeping is the opposite of throwing away.
    Therefore.... Householder is a TF Beehaver.... not Beekeeper - Semantics???
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  8. #248
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,225

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Would Dean buy his honey?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  9. #249
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    2,919

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Would Dean buy his honey?
    I was just thinking that.... looks like TF honey to me, definition or not.

    So yes... Dean should be able to buy it and label it TF honey if he wishes.... right??
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  10. #250
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I can't speak for Dean, but considering the way he markets his honey, I doubt it. I can't think of anyone concerned about how their honey is made would buy honey from somebody who kills all their bees every year.

    And yes, 'beehaver' is semantics. But I didn't say it, you did! Not my style.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  11. #251
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,543

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    ....except that Dean's customers expect some degree of "sustainability" however you want to define it.
    The main advantage of running our own business is that we don't have to subscribe to or market based on someone else's criteria.
    Touting ron's approach as "treatment free beekeeping" is like touting the maintenance department of a car rental agency for the high quality and reliability of their fleet. The fact that the cars are new and are replaced when they exhibit problems makes the claim that they are "well maintained" rather meaningless.

    Deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  12. #252
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
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    5,033

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    The main advantage of running our own business is that we don't have to subscribe to or market based on someone else's criteria.
    Excellent point. The same goes for treatment-free and why my ilk quit using the term 'organic.'
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  13. #253
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    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I can't think of anyone concerned about how their honey is made would buy honey from somebody who kills all their bees every year.
    Not that it really matters, but I believe Householder no longer kills his bees every year. Instead he sells them as one big mass of package bees to buyers usually from the deep south.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  14. #254
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,225

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ....except that Dean's customers expect some degree of "sustainability" however you want to define it.
    The main advantage of running our own business is that we don't have to subscribe to or market based on someone else's criteria.
    Touting ron's approach as "treatment free beekeeping" is like touting the maintenance department of a car rental agency for the high quality and reliability of their fleet. The fact that the cars are new and are replaced when they exhibit problems makes the claim that they are "well maintained" rather meaningless.

    Deknow
    So, just to be clear, you wouldn't buy Ron's honey. Right?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  15. #255
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,543

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Well, I wouldn't sell it as treatment free honey.

    Deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  16. #256
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,225

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I c.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  17. #257

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    And one other thing to consider when using Ron Householder as an example……what do you suppose he does with his comb between seasons?
    I'm thinkin' that it's a safe bet that there's a chemical involved.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  18. #258
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,787

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Not that it really matters, but I believe Householder no longer kills his bees every year. Instead he sells them as one big mass of package bees to buyers usually from the deep south.
    so in that case, he is not killing off his hives, but sell them off as a profit, and then buying in packages in the spring to raise for his honey production.
    I call that treatment free right to the definition

    If the boarder opens some day, Im going back to those kinda days,
    might even call myself a treatment free beekeeper
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #259
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    so in that case, he is not killing off his hives, but sell them off as a profit, and then buying in packages in the spring to raise for his honey production.
    The last time I heard, Householder was running 800 hives with a 1/2 ton pickup and making 50 Tons of honey a year, which made him the largest honey producer in Ohio.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  20. #260
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I call that treatment free right to the definition
    Paradichlorobenzene?

    p-DCB is poorly soluble in water and is not easily broken down by soil organisms. Like many hydrocarbons, p-DCB is lipophilic and will accumulate in the fatty tissues.
    The United States Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) have determined that p-DCB may reasonably be anticipated to be a carcinogen, although there is no direct evidence.[4] Animals given very high levels in water developed liver and kidney tumors.[citation needed] The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has set a target maximum contaminant level of 75 micrograms of p-DCB per liter of drinking water (75 μg/L).[5] p-DCB is also an EPA-registered pesticide.[6] The United States Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has set a maximum level of 75 parts of p-DCB per million parts air in the workplace (75 ppm) for an 8-hour day, 40-hour workweek.[citation needed]
    Under California's Proposition 65, p-DCB is listed as "known to the State to cause cancer".[7]


    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

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