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  1. #181
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    If it's a simple fact, why ask?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  2. #182
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    Dec 2002
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Do you not see how inconsistent that sounds?
    Nope. As has been established previously, my bees are unrelated to Mr. Bush's and I do not put the same stock in small cell as he does. So you cannot judge my statements and his statements to be inconsistent because we are not talking about the same thing or in the same context. Furthermore, Mr. Kuchenmeister's bees are treated, though the hive I purchased was four years removed and did not contain a single original frame.


    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    I believe that your reports about MB's losses are somewhat subjective.
    Perhaps you can explain how I can correctly interpret what I see in front of my face in Arkansas, but I cannot do the same in Nebraska. It's hives without lids for Pete's sake.
    Last edited by Solomon Parker; 03-15-2013 at 11:54 AM. Reason: sp
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,395

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    If anyone reading this believes that a spring visual inspection of a sampling of your hives is proof that you don't have a varroa problem now is the time to state your case.

  4. #184
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Who is making a case based solely on spring visual inspections?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  5. #185
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    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,395

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I am just interpreting the links he offered us, are you aware of any other documentation?

  6. #186
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Are you choosing to disregard the man's word as well?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  7. #187
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Greensboro, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,746

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    At what point in this 10 page thread did we switch from a peaceful discussion of whether a Commercial Operator can, or is, treatment free, to a discussion over what Sol's losses were from? Or whether they were statistically significant? Or whether anyone "credits" his "findings" like they "should" with someone who has 10 years of experience? Just asking so if I go back and decide to re-read this thread for it's valuable information I can skip the p***ing contest in the middle.

    A shame that this "Commercial" thread has turned the typical route of just about any thread in the "Treatment Free" section.

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,395

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Re read my posts and don't trivialize this or accuse me of something I haven't said Sol.

  9. #189
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I would be happy if treatment-free methodologies and adherents were not constantly derided and criticized.

    Are there any treatment-free commercials? No. And therefore none to comment. End of discussion.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  10. #190
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,984

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Solomon, what do you think it would take to allow a commercial op, lets say 800 honey producing hives, to sustain itself treatment free?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  11. #191
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    Dec 2002
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Ian, all I can offer in response to that is to take what I do and multiply it by approximately 32.

    I does not yet work on a migratory scale, though I hope it can one day.

    This op would need to raise its own queens and develop a localized strain of bees that survive and produce a good honey crop. They will want to sell as much of that crop as possible as local (and throw in treatment-free if it makes the sale) honey. I personally don't sell my honey as treatment-free, just local. Most people don't understand that bees are treated or want to take the time to have it explained to them. But I will if they want. All they know is that my honey tastes better than the stuff from Walmart. And they're more than willing to pay five times the price and get it in a mason jar (reusable by the way). And there are so few beekeepers around here that most people don't know one, other than me.

    That's really all I got. It's pretty much the same as Dee Lusby and Kirk Webster have done, but with local adaptations.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  12. #192
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    Sep 2005
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    Greensboro, North Carolina
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Ian, all I can offer in response to that is to take what I do and multiply it by approximately 32.
    And what exactly is it that you "do" that makes it work?

    If it's convert to small cell, incorporate treatment free queens of proven genetics, and cease all treatments, while expecting a large number of losses over the next five years, it's possible (although I doubt you'll get a commercial operator to agree to that).

    If it's trade in a migratory operation for a fixed location operation, sell honey in mason jars instead of in bulk, and manage their 800 hives as if they had 25, I don't think it's going to be possible.

    If it's to get something that works, not know how or why it works, but blindly believe it does work, while recording no data to ensure that either 1) you have a problem now, or 2) how you solved your problem along the way, or 3) ensure you are in the process of solving your problem while you are fixing it, all the while passing judgment onto others who don't believe what you are saying, criticize you somehow (for a variety of reasons, some legit, most not), and ridicule them for not blindly having faith, well, that's not much of a plan in my book.

    If it's close to the last option, there's no way to tell if what you are doing is going to work along the way. If you don't record anything, or monitor anything, the commercial operator may start the 'experiment' with 800 hives, be down to 700 after 3 years, and then have a complete loss after year 5, all because he couldn't tell that a problem was coming and end the 'experiment' before he went bankrupt.

    You can blindly believe in faith, or work on principles when you are a hobby beekeeper, or when you sell honey for side income. If you lose it all, you can just start back up again. If you try to stand on faith alone, or principles alone when it's your livelihood on the line, you may find yourself homeless.

  13. #193
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    5,079

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    And that's why I don't talk to Mr. Specialkayme.

    Suffice it to say, no. Pretty much none of that.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  14. #194
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Ka'u Hawaii
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    169

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >So Michael, I'd appreciate it if you would take the time to break open a piece of drone comb or 2 this year so you can tell us your mite observations (lots, some, few, none)

    The bee inspector does this on a few of my hives every year and here are his results for the last nine years:
    http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm
    Thanks for posting that, Michael. Pretty impressive that not even your drones have mites. You are fortunate that there are zero mites in your hives. I wish that I could make the same claim.

  15. #195
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    With all due respect, zero mites was not the claim, nor does the evidence provided demonstrate such.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  16. #196
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,395

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I would agree with Sol on this point. What Mr. Bush does appear to do though is
    offer up these links as prima facie evidence that mites are not a problem with his bees and that is where I have an issue. I am not accusing him of lying or anything of the sort. If he wants to present further evidence (nothing formal just the results of his own methods would suffice) of his mite levels as the season progressed I would be interested in hearing about it. He will correct me if I am in error but the only statements he has posted, that I am aware of, indicate that he really dosent monitor mite levels because varroa are no longer a problem for his bees.
    Last edited by jim lyon; 03-15-2013 at 06:28 PM. Reason: Clarification

  17. #197
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    2,002

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    I never participate in the treatment free forum. I don't believe I'm able to understand the case that is made for it by many of the people that practice it which is my issue not thiers.

    Solomon has roughly 25 hive? If he could split those 4-5 times successfully ( I've no idea if this is possible in his climate or following his standards) he could easily be at 800 hives in 5 years?

    As I understand many agree that remaining stationary is going to be an important factor in successfully being treatment free. It would also be important to be in a traditional high honey producing area, I don't believe he is.

    Would 25 treatment free hives that could be split into 800 within 5-6 year located in a higher than average honey production area be worth a lot ? I would think they would even if they produced 20# less honey than hives treated and heavily fed.

    The Guy in Ohio ( forgot his name) that shakes packages and feeds every year might double his count if he could reduce his labor with treatment free hives.

    I'm not suggesting the old "if it could be done someone would do it" but rather maybe an opportunity is being lost.

    If some one were able to travel the country and develop sucsessful treatment free yards of 25 to 50 hives and demonstrate to traditional commericals continued sucsess splitting and in production I'm willing to bet that many would decide to keep a couple hundred.

  18. #198

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Removed voluntarily by poster.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  19. #199
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,984

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    Ian, all I can offer in response to that
    That is what the commercial operators are saying also. Comparing the sustainability of a 25 treatment free operation to the sustainability of an 800 hive commercial operation is like comparing apples and oranges. Two totally different scales of beekeeping.

    So all the insight of a treatment free beekeeper as yourself makes for interesting discussion, but it holds absolutely no relevance to commercial beekeeping practices
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #200
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,200

    Default Re: Treatment Free Commercial Beekeepers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    There are a bunch of treatment-free sideliners.
    By what criteria or definition of sideliner?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

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