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  1. #101
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    good questions. Generaly its a one time thing to get them off to a great start in cool weather. Honey is not good brood food, light syrup is actually better so the goal is to provide a ton of it right in the brood area even when its to cold or you have no real active foragers. Even with a feeder the nurse bees wait for someone to go get it from the feeders. with it right on the comb the move quicker. after that first brood cycle your hive is in better shape, usually the weather would be better(not this year) and your balance of foragers to nurse bees in line.
    I don't conssider them for dearths. just starups, and fall. I take all the honey in the fall, so several deeps frames of syrup will be put back. (first time doing this)

    As for weight, didn't test that, but there full, frames are probably 6-7 lbs each

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bunker Hill, IL
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    493

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    , usually the weather would be better(not this year) and your balance of foragers to nurse bees in line.
    sorry to hijack the thread but i had to ask
    your about 3 hrs south of me. My spring has been unsually cool and wet IMHO. nothing compared to last year when we had 70 deg in march and never looked back. dandelions have been out but not in force and seems we are really struggling to get a good bloom on... hows it in your part.

  3. #103
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    2,646

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Crappy, a cpl warm days, and a lot of cold rain. locking the bees in for 3-4 days straight. Lost a lot of brood last week in a cold snap, just got of the phone with a guy who lost 6 new package installs because of a cold snap and no food to the cluster.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hampstead, NC USA
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    576

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by schmism View Post
    Ive been looking for the numbers but didnt see any.

    What is the weight of the frame after a run through the sprayer? ie, how much syrup can you get into the cells/frames?

    Is this process repeated numerous times, or is this a single event that is done, placeing an entire super of these wetted frames on a hive and never going back? eg does it provide enough feed for 1-2 months in the spring? or is it just like several weeks and you need to do it again if times are tough for the bees?
    IMO placing a super FULL of syrup is asking for trouble. I can't say for sure but if it is a cold climate the super will be like an ice cube on top of the hive. JMOHO YMMV
    For the 2:1 syrup I use I'd say the frames are 95% full or more and there is very little "settling" at the bottom of the frames but there is some and a drip container is required. I would say that a deep frame of syrup weighs 75% of a honey frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    good questions. Generaly its a one time thing to get them off to a great start in cool weather. Honey is not good brood food, light syrup is actually better so the goal is to provide a ton of it right in the brood area even when its to cold or you have no real active foragers. Even with a feeder the nurse bees wait for someone to go get it from the feeders. with it right on the comb the move quicker. after that first brood cycle your hive is in better shape, usually the weather would be better(not this year) and your balance of foragers to nurse bees in line.
    I don't conssider them for dearths. just starups, and fall. I take all the honey in the fall, so several deeps frames of syrup will be put back. (first time doing this)

    As for weight, didn't test that, but there full, frames are probably 6-7 lbs each
    gmcharlie-you are giving sound advice/answers IMO but HEY! This is my daggon show here! Just kidding-I'd rather not deal with trying to answer all the questions for fear I may be completely incorrect and off base with a reply . One issue however and with all due respect I thing the 2:1/1:1 syrup ration difference is a myth. I recently read somewhere that the bees will use 2:1 syrup just as effectively as 1:1 for "compelling the bees to raise brood". I feel we beekeepers over think things AND we also tend to compare the bees to humans which is just stupid. Again-this is just my opinion but it is a strong one.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Crappy, a cpl warm days, and a lot of cold rain. locking the bees in for 3-4 days straight. Lost a lot of brood last week in a cold snap, just got of the phone with a guy who lost 6 new package installs because of a cold snap and no food to the cluster.
    Should have filled some frames with syrup & placed them in the hive while they were nice & warm (ventilation required of course due to dew point change). What a terrible beekeeper that would allow these poor babies to suffer and die. How would you like it if this happened to someone you knew?

    How about we talk about, "Urban Beekeeping"?
    I'll start off by saying I'd like to rename this subculture of beekeeping, "Garbage Bees"
    I think this trend is giving so many people a warped, "warm & fuzzy" Oh-I live in a city but I keep in touch with Mother Nature by keeping bees on my condo roof. They seem to collect 3000 lbs of honey per hive. It is varietal honey that comes from the nearby nectar sources that are available in my congested scum hole of a city all year. Coke, Pepsi and so many other flavors.
    Give me a break. Really? Bees in a city like Washington DC? I say no frigging way these bees are finding true nectar. Why would they when they have all the corn syrup they would ever want in total abundance?
    Don't get me started.
    Thanks
    Howard

  5. #105
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    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    2,839

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    I have to wonder what flavor or coke it is bees find pollen in.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  6. #106
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    One issue however and with all due respect I thing the 2:1/1:1 syrup ration difference is a myth. I recently read somewhere that the bees will use 2:1 syrup just as effectively as 1:1 for "compelling the bees to raise brood". I feel we beekeepers over think things AND we also tend to compare the bees to humans which is just stupid. Again-this is just my opinion but it is a strong one


    I am not sure where you read that, but I would 100% disagree. take 30 hives and look at the spring buildups, without pollen and nectar flows less than around 10% will boom. most just basicly survive until fresh pollen and nectar arrive. A feww will take off granted, but darn few.
    Try feeding Nucs honey, and 1-1 and watch how fast the difference is apparent. in 45 days the honey nuc will just be showing signs of increase, the 1-1 will be overflowing.
    I started 26 nus March 28 20 were HFCS filled, 6 were honey filled.(last years comb) I will have data next week but I can tell you right now the HFCS ones are healthier.....(or at least larger)

  7. #107
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    May 2009
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    Hampstead, NC USA
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    576

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    One issue however and with all due respect I thing the 2:1/1:1 syrup ration difference is a myth. I recently read somewhere that the bees will use 2:1 syrup just as effectively as 1:1 for "compelling the bees to raise brood". I feel we beekeepers over think things AND we also tend to compare the bees to humans which is just stupid. Again-this is just my opinion but it is a strong one


    I am not sure where you read that, but I would 100% disagree. take 30 hives and look at the spring buildups, without pollen and nectar flows less than around 10% will boom. most just basicly survive until fresh pollen and nectar arrive. A feww will take off granted, but darn few.
    Try feeding Nucs honey, and 1-1 and watch how fast the difference is apparent. in 45 days the honey nuc will just be showing signs of increase, the 1-1 will be overflowing.
    I started 26 nus March 28 20 were HFCS filled, 6 were honey filled.(last years comb) I will have data next week but I can tell you right now the HFCS ones are healthier.....(or at least larger)
    This may be true for honey-vs- sugar syrup, and again I may be wrong, but I would have to say so long as pollen is available the bees will use 2:1 sugar syrup to raise brood as well as 1:1.
    I never mentioned honey which is, of course, much different than sucrose syrup.
    Thanks
    Howard

  8. #108
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    9,033

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Honey is not good brood food,
    Are you sure the bees are doing it all wrong?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #109
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    If pollen is avalible, and no nectar that is true, but were actually talking about home bound bees. To cold to get out and forage,(especialy this year) and fresh nectar/pollen not avalible.
    The point of the Post is equipment and its use, I would much prefer fresh pollen and nectar coming in abundatly. this is second best choice. a hive full of 1-1 very early in the season, when they are usualy more hive bound than not.......
    I can tell you for sure that the hives we did this year with nothing in them but some honey, have gone nowhere, and the filled ones have the second deeps on about half of them. We have had really lousey bee weather...

    But back to the OP......and the thoughts behind it

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    moravia,ny
    Posts
    1,188

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    never thought I would agree with acebird but the bees know what to do. any beekeeper that knows more than his bees is going to learn the hard way.

  11. #111
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    If you want to live by that thought, then put your bees back in the tree, never feed them and don't check mites...... We are Farmers, we pratice aminal husbandry. insects or cows, we look for ways to get the most production. This is not a natural beekeeping post...

  12. #112
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Yep, I agree it is not a natural beekeeping post but I don't agree that honey is not a good brood food or that syrup is better in the long run.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  13. #113
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    May 2009
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    Hampstead, NC USA
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    576

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Yep, I agree it is not a natural beekeeping post but I don't agree that honey is not a good brood food or that syrup is better in the long run.
    I agree with gmcharlie and I find it odd that people think honey is, in any logical thought process, a better brood rearing food than sucrose syrup.
    Honey is for winter reserves and is consumed to give the bees energy to keep the hive warm. It is why the bees hoard honey.
    Sucrose syrup in the form of nectar or sugar syrup, combined with pollen AND who knows what other factors, tells the bees it is brood season.
    This is abundantly clear as the queen slows down laying during a dearth and in the winter.
    If you turn it around and ask what feed would you use to help bees get through the a cold winter would you say honey or 1:1 syrup?
    What is a non intervention beekeeping approach? When I read this it makes me think of someone with a superior ability to rationalize.
    How in the World can one keep bees yet not intervene? There isn't a single action in managing bees that does not envolve intervention.
    I am of the opinion that if it beekeepers were not interventionists bees would no longer exist except for the rare ferral colony and AHB.
    If we didn't properly treat/manage bees they would have succumbed to pests & diseases that were introduced 30 years ago.
    There is a battle going on & if you want a warm & fuzzy apiary with crystals and incense and fung shuay have at it. You are still intervening-just not enough.

  14. #114
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    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    5,700

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    > What is a non intervention beekeeping approach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    BeeC for you the intricacies of non-intrevention beekeeping means I do what I feel like when I feel like it. I think last year in April you told me they were just a stack of boxes so that's the way I treat them. For everyone else it means I avoid upsetting the interior of the hive if at all possible except in the spring time when some form of manipulation is necessary to avoid swarms.
    No doubt, Ace is the world's foremost expert on "non-intrevention beekeeping"!




    (click the blue arrow in the quote box to go to the quote source )
    Graham
    --- Victor Hugo - "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

  15. #115
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    Sucrose syrup in the form of nectar or sugar syrup, combined with pollen AND who knows what other factors, tells the bees it is brood season.
    Brood rearing starts in the middle of winter here. Good luck with syrup in the middle of winter here.
    I do intervene but it is my last choice not my first choice. You can practice yoga but never be a yoga expert.
    Last edited by Acebird; 04-29-2013 at 02:16 PM.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  16. #116
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    Jan 2006
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    Lee\'s Summit, MO
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    1,284

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    What is a non intervention beekeeping approach? .
    From what I've read the "non intervention beekeeping" approach is along the lines of prefering to be a Beehaver to an actual Beekeeper. It's a new term that sounds more sophisticated and is created to avoid the social stigma of knowingly taking more honey that you should, letting hives fail when it's convienent and generally being a poor beekeeper. It is also apparently being very lonely, posting frequently, and quick to tell others what they've done wrong, with an inability to learn from ones own mistakes or understanding social graces.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  17. #117
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    Apr 2013
    Location
    Gage County, Nebraska, USA
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    17

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    I believe that the challenge you are facing with filling the frames completely can partly be attributed to the surface tension of the water. If there was a bee-approved oil that you could imulsify into the syrup, you could reduce the tension. It shouldn't take much to do the trick, but I'm just guessing.
    An additional thought may be to polarize your water (+) and your frames (-) and let natural attraction take its course. Maybe a combination of these two priciples could lead to a fuller frame.

    Not trying to criticize, just offering some topics for investigation - it really is a creative setup that works well already.

  18. #118
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    May 2009
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    Hampstead, NC USA
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    576

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by Oh_Beehave View Post
    I believe that the challenge you are facing with filling the frames completely can partly be attributed to the surface tension of the water. If there was a bee-approved oil that you could imulsify into the syrup, you could reduce the tension. It shouldn't take much to do the trick, but I'm just guessing.
    An additional thought may be to polarize your water (+) and your frames (-) and let natural attraction take its course. Maybe a combination of these two priciples could lead to a fuller frame.

    Not trying to criticize, just offering some topics for investigation - it really is a creative setup that works well already.
    Good post as far as I am concerned. Just to clarify-with the system I (and others I believe) built there is no issue with filling frames to better than 95%. I'd go so far as to say even higher but I'll state a conservative number is 95%.

    The oil and electrical ideas interest me but now that I've conquered this beast, at least from my own standpoint, I don't wish to experiment any more.

    I don't know of any emulsifying agent that I'd personally feel comfortable having as part of the feed but I like the idea of making the syrup more "slippery".

    If you can provide any ideas about charging the syrup & frames of wax I'd love to hear them. I think you are suggesting a system similar to powder coating or electrostatic paint applications?
    I can't see how the wax comb could conduct a sufficient charge. Perhaps the crimp wire in the foundation could but these are all separate wires so there would not be a continuous path. It would be impractical to hook wires to these embedded wires anyway but I'm listening.

    Thanks
    Howard


    Practicing "get all the **** honey I can while still providing a healthy environment for these **** bees that have nothing else in mind than to make me work my ***** off simply to be disappointed year after year"
    Now THAT is a noble effort.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    Vancouver, WA
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    121

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by D Coates View Post
    From what I've read the "non intervention beekeeping" approach is along the lines of prefering to be a Beehaver to an actual Beekeeper. It's a new term that sounds more sophisticated and is created to avoid the social stigma of knowingly taking more honey that you should, letting hives fail when it's convienent and generally being a poor beekeeper. It is also apparently being very lonely, posting frequently, and quick to tell others what they've done wrong, with an inability to learn from ones own mistakes or understanding social graces.
    "I keep bugs in boxes better then you"

  20. #120
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    Jun 2012
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    Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
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    171

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post

    The oil and electrical ideas interest me but now that I've conquered this beast, at least from my own standpoint, I don't wish to experiment any more.
    Howard, I purchased a Kelly model and plan to use it this spring. Do you have any learnings from its actual use now. Referring specifically to placing the frames in the hive.

    I run all single brood Nest, my thoughts were that I would fill 4 out of 10 combs in an empty super and place them below the brood nest, so the warm cluster could stay in the upper box where it's warm.

    May simulate a honey flow by putting it below the brood nest too.

    Luke

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