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  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Hampstead, NC USA
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    567

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Well I love it! going to build one with a jacket for running HFCS. Mocking it up this weekend with a Diaghapram pump I use to feed HFCS anyway (truck mounted hose reel)
    One question I have you mentioned a syrup your buying thats surcrose and cheaper than HFCS?? what and where?

    Charlie
    Atlantic sugar refining in Charlotte, NC is where I've gotten my syrup.
    I don't want to squash your idea but I don't think a diaphragm pump be satisfactory. If you feel otherwise then build it & let me know how it performs.
    In my exhaustive research I learned there are 2 or 3 type of pump for high vulome, high viscous fluid. An internal or external gear pump, mine being the external type, and a lobe pump. If I recall correctly a diaphragm pump will cause a lot of pulsation in the output if it is a size pump that will provide the volume*whicb, again if I recall, is about 16 GPM for the system I made. A small diaphragm pump doesn't pulsate as much but doesn't provide the volume.
    Just passing on what, I think, I learned.
    Ideally a direct mount pump with integrated gear reduction would be so much easier to build. My problem was budget and not knowing for sure what speed reduction I would needs for syrup.
    Good luck.

    Oh-to he poster before you I like the idea of a small stub at the drain. I'd like to try a version but one with a ,"U" turn so there is even less chance of particles suspended in the liquid to get in the supply.
    In reality I'll continue with how it is setup now. It really seems to be hassle free and, in my personal experience, going forward sometimes means going backward.
    I am almost always tempted to fix things that aren't broken. In this case I'll try to avoid this tendency due to having a machine I am more than happy with plus having a bit of burnout. .
    Thanks

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    2,473

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    about 16 GPM
    Does that 16 GPM consider the speed reduction from your pulleys or is that a spec on the pump?
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
    Posts
    2,646

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Well I have a 13 gpm 12 volt pump that I use for straight syrup.... going to try that first cause Its here and plumed. If not i will switch to a lobe style real quick. but looking at the video i think this thing will do fine.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hampstead, NC USA
    Posts
    567

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by AstroBee View Post
    Does that 16 GPM consider the speed reduction from your pulleys or is that a spec on the pump?
    That is the pump specs with water. I didn't measure the output from my setup. A little thicker liquid will increase output because of "slip" with water.
    I know the GPM has got to be less given the rpm I am running.
    Thanks for noticing my error. I should have stated it was the spec rating.
    Howard

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,009

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    I'd like to try a version but one with a ,"U" turn so there is even less chance of particles suspended in the liquid to get in the supply.
    If I understand this correctly I wouldn't do that. Unless it is way above the bottom surface the inflow will suck particles off the bottom. Small particles in suspension that will go in with just a short extension should not plug up your sprayer nozzles. Here again bringing the nozzles closer together will allow you to open up the orifices creating more flow at lower pressure. Less likely to clog. You are going to get some large particles in the intake because you have your nozzles right over the intake. I know you might be tired of this project but you would help yourself allot if you move the nozzles close to the front of the sink away from the intake. Then an ordinary screen can be placed between the filling station and the intake as a baffle.
    For those starting from scratch look for a laundry tub that has the drain very close to the back wall. Another option is to use the molded hole only as a clean out drain and put a bulk head fitting through the back wall as the intake.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  6. #46
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hampstead, NC USA
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    567

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    If I understand this correctly I wouldn't do that. Unless it is way above the bottom surface the inflow will suck particles off the bottom. Small particles in suspension that will go in with just a short extension should not plug up your sprayer nozzles. Here again bringing the nozzles closer together will allow you to open up the orifices creating more flow at lower pressure. Less likely to clog. You are going to get some large particles in the intake because you have your nozzles right over the intake. I know you might be tired of this project but you would help yourself allot if you move the nozzles close to the front of the sink away from the intake. Then an ordinary screen can be placed between the filling station and the intake as a baffle.
    For those starting from scratch look for a laundry tub that has the drain very close to the back wall. Another option is to use the molded hole only as a clean out drain and put a bulk head fitting through the back wall as the intake.
    Thanks for the input. As I mentioned I am not going to make any changes with the supply/tub drain. It is filtered well and not giving any problems.
    I don't understand how bringing the, "nozzles" together would allow me to open the orifices? Are you calling what I call "spray bars" "nozzles"? If so then they are less than 4" apart and without some custom plumbing fittings that is as close as I can get them and I like them this distance enough that I am not going to mess with this system to any extend. Besides that the flow is maxed out from my pump so other than making the holes smaller there is nothing I could or would do to change the flow. The tub I bought has an indented moulded front so I can actually stand quite close to the spray bars. The issue is my feet would be hitting the pump/motor mounting plate. If I were to do it again I would make the plate higher so my feet would fit under it but again I am very happy with the ergonomics. If I were short and had short arm I would change it. Being 6'2" with ape arms it is easy to dip the frames. I agree with you that if others do this system it would be better to use a vertical bulkhead for the supply and the drain for clean out. Moving the spray bars forward is a good idea as well for a new build. The store I got my tub from has one that is a little larger but I didn't see the need and it was nearly 2X the price.
    I placed 10 more frames of syrup in a hive and 2 double nucs today and I am glad I checked them. They are all bringing in nectar now but the hives had zero capped honey and the frames that are wet have super thin nectar.
    I think we may be about to start our flow here in earnest. I see new comb being made and blueberrys are blooming in sunny spots.
    Red Maple is a first and great foraging source here and these trees are busting out.
    So far I've checked 8 double nucs and they overwintered great. I made 3 of these double deeps last weekend and will make the other 5 doubles in a week or two. The double deep hives I overwintered didn't fare nearly as well. I lost one about a month ago and the other 2 I've checked are good but not nearly as crowded as the double nucs. Hive beetles are huge here as well so I have got to keep the hives crowded.
    Thanks
    Howard

  7. #47
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    I don't understand how bringing the, "nozzles" together would allow me to open the orifices? Are you calling what I call "spray bars" "nozzles"? If so then they are less than 4" apart and without some custom plumbing fittings that is as close as I can get them and I like them this distance enough that I am not going to mess with this system to any extend. Besides that the flow is maxed out from my pump so other than making the holes smaller there is nothing I could or would do to change the flow.
    Yes, I am speaking of spray bars when I said nozzles. The flow of the system is dependent on back pressure. If you open the orifices the flow will be greater. Opening the orifices will also drop the back pressure so the spray bars will not shoot out so far but the volume will be greater and not splash as much. The plumbing is easy enough to do but if you don't want to that is fine. Not everybody is 6-2. Besides, if you are doing 10 frames that will not feel the same as doing 100 or 500 regardless of how tall you are.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #48
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hampstead, NC USA
    Posts
    567

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Yes, I am speaking of spray bars when I said nozzles. The flow of the system is dependent on back pressure. If you open the orifices the flow will be greater. Opening the orifices will also drop the back pressure so the spray bars will not shoot out so far but the volume will be greater and not splash as much. The plumbing is easy enough to do but if you don't want to that is fine. Not everybody is 6-2. Besides, if you are doing 10 frames that will not feel the same as doing 100 or 500 regardless of how tall you are.
    Thanks for the input. It was a challenge and a huge learning curve for me in sizing the proper output for my pump.
    It sounds like you know about pumps but for anyone tinkering a gear pump has to be able to get rid of all the fluid it gets supplied with. Some have over pressure valves but these are to prevent pump damage-not to accommodate poor supply side design. I got lucky in that my pump is the largest external gear pump I could find before stepping up to an "industrial" pump. Which would require industrial budget.
    Anyway with my spray bars at 1" with the size & number of holes it worked out perfectly in that I am getting just the right volume & pressure from the spray bars and I am satisfying the pump requirements.
    If anyone wants to use a larger pump than the supply will handle simply putting a bypass inline with the supply side will allow adjustment of the flow/pressure. Word of warning -make sure you have this open when the pump is running. These pumps easily explode PVC.
    BTW- I don't get syrup splashing from my tub in any significant amount. I've filled 40 frames recently and have a few drops on the floor. Not enough for me to even bother cleaning up so far. I know I'll be filling more today so I'll wait until the filling is finished for the immediate future.
    Thanks
    Howard

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,780

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    have you considered a screen on the bottom of the tub to catch stray bees and pieces of wax so that you dont circulate it all throughout the machine?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Strafford, NH, USA
    Posts
    345

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    The only filter I have is a large stainless mesh kitchen type strainer that I placed over the tub drain. It does a great job & being large it doesn't keep particles from choking off the pump.
    Thanks
    Screen/filter is in place

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,009

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    If anyone wants to use a larger pump than the supply will handle simply putting a bypass inline with the supply side will allow adjustment of the flow/pressure. Word of warning -make sure you have this open when the pump is running. These pumps easily explode PVC.
    A gear pump would not have been my choice for this application because of the close tolerance of the pump. Debris could ruin the pump.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #52
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
    Posts
    2,646

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    FYI that diagphram pump works just fine. Mocked it up today. washtub like yours on top a old jacketed botteling tank. Will use the tank to heat the HFCS, and drain right back into it (with a screen)..... but that Diaphram pumps is just great..... looks and works just like yours in the video...

  13. #53
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hampstead, NC USA
    Posts
    567

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    A gear pump would not have been my choice for this application because of the close tolerance of the pump. Debris could ruin the pump.
    What type of pump would you have used? Does stating that you wouldn't use a gear pump help anyone? Sounds like you would just like to be critical being that you didn't offer an alternative to the pump I chose.
    I agree external gear pumps are easily damaged by debris but in speaking with the manufacturer they said that the debris generated by wax bee comb would easily pass through the pump and, if I recall correctly, I mentioned the fact that these type pumps were not designed for particles in the solution. Believe me I did a ton of homework and for what I already had on hand to put toward the design and my budget the pump I used fit the bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    FYI that diagphram pump works just fine. Mocked it up today. washtub like yours on top a old jacketed botteling tank. Will use the tank to heat the HFCS, and drain right back into it (with a screen)..... but that Diaphram pumps is just great..... looks and works just like yours in the video...
    That is outstanding. I'd love to see the setup if you get some time to post pictures/ links. What pump did you use? How did you power it?
    A diaphragm pump seems much more user friendly than a gear pump for several reasons. I imagine they are less costly as well.
    I appreciate this contribution. Others may be helped by your design.
    BTW-did you try the pump without heating the syrup? I didn't do much research on diaphragm pumps so I don't know how they typically perform with thicker fluids.
    Thanks
    Howard

  14. #54
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    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,646

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Haven't tried it yet, but I will. Todays test was shugar water, cold... My HFCS is due till thursday.......

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,009

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    What type of pump would you have used? Does stating that you wouldn't use a gear pump help anyone? Sounds like you would just like to be critical being that you didn't offer an alternative to the pump I chose.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to be critical but in a re-circulation application you need good filtering for the intake because there could be anything on the frames when sticky honey and wax is involved. I thought if the syrup is thick it might not go in the cells to good so I don't see why a circulation pump would not work. You might have to gear it to cut down the RPM. There are piston transfer pumps that work in a 55 gallon drum that would be an option. Wobble plate pumps, lob pumps, and diaphragm pumps as mentioned. The diaphragm pump should be oversize and run at a slower RPM. They can get expensive too when the size goes up.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  16. #56
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hampstead, NC USA
    Posts
    567

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    For anyone interested I am posting a final video on youtube. Look, if you are so inclined, at, "Howardtoob"
    Here are a few photos of one way to make this pump.
    Thanks

    http://


  17. #57
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,009

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    I would like to see at least a bronze sleeve on that first pillow block next to the pulley. Ball bearing would be better.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #58
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hampstead, NC USA
    Posts
    567

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    You are right. Ball bearing would be better. Bronze sleeve as well would be better. I had the shaft & pillow blocks already so I didn't have to spend $. They are cast iron and being the shaft is aligned within .002" with a flexible coupling the pulley shaft "should" live longer than me so long as I keep some oil in the blocks.
    Remember it is running relatively slow.
    Also, if you recall, I needed to do this on a budget. I sell honey and contribute proceeds to a cancer foundation. Before spending $ it only makes sense to use what is available free and upgrade if/when the system is proven. In my case I'll let it spin until I smell smoke.
    For anyone thinking of a build using a shaft for speed reduction Ace bird is correct-use a BB block for the shaft. Shaft alignment is just as important with any type of bearing block no matter what anyone says.
    Thanks
    Howard

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,009

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    I understand. You could very well get away with what you have being vigilant on the oiling. keep your ear on the sound of the motor. If you hear it straining the load is not only on the motor it is on that first bearing due to "belt pull". As you have stated, gear pumps are not forgiving. Load ups can happen instantly both on the vacuum side and the pressure side.

    FYI - I would like to see a drip cover over that open frame motor but not so much that it impends the cooling air.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  20. #60
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    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,646

    Default Re: Frame filling "machine" update

    ebay pics 061.jpgebay pics 060.jpgebay pics 063.jpg

    I think I got pics uploaded. FYI cold straight HFCS runs great no nead to heat. 2 things to change, deeper tub for splash (note I did include cleanouts for spray wands) and a bypass hose so you can lower the pressure. with 1-1 ratio there is too much pressure and syrup actually splashes back out of the comb. Also note I had to cut the plastic out of the sink trap, otherwise the drainback was a little slow.

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