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Frame filling "machine" update

56K views 123 replies 39 participants last post by  challenger 
#1 ·
Several months ago I posted here about designing/building a system for filling frames of comb with sugar syrup.
My specific goal was to replicate a system a Canadian beekeeper has videos of but in a much more affordable design.
I am very pleased to be able to say that I've finished this build and I am thrilled with how it operates.
PLEASE do not comment here with feedback consisting of things like, "why do you need to do this when what I do works so well" or "I've been using thus & such a method for years and it works for me"
All to often beekeepers are so set in their ways and believe their way sis the best & only way and I am tired of hearing it so this post is simply for those that wish to know about what I did to make this frame filler.
It took a lot of time on & off but I can tell you why I think this will be the way I am going to feed my bees from now on:
It is super fast-20 deep frames in less than 10 minutes including filling the vat, filling 20 frames and flushing the system. This does not include mixing and/or warming the syrup. Warm syrup is required for the system I built.
It is a nearly no mess system (although I did have a few extremely messy episodes during R & D)
It allows me to put warm frames of syrup directly into the hive.
It allows frames to be left in the hive so the bees can use it for storing honey they bring in or use at as brood comb.
The following is a description of the parts & their use/placement:
1-Utility tub/sink from the local Big box store or, even better, from a cheaper source. This is the "tank" and is used for filling the frames and as the supply source for the pump.
1-#6 bronze gear pump. This is the largest size gear pump that is still considered, "Light Duty" according to the manufacturers I consulted with. Anything larger gets into a much more costly pump and requires much more power to run plus it would be physically larger & heavier. Cost for mine was $250.00 used. These pumps have 1" inlet/outlet ports.
1-3/4 hp minimum 1725 RPM electric motor. I had mine laying around so it was free. I was concerned that motor would be too small but it works perfectly so long as I am using syrup that is at least 80*F.
1-pair pillow block bearings for coupling shaft-$20-30.00
1-flex coupling for coupling shaft $20.00
1-pulley shaft. This is used to couple the pump to a pulley for RPM reduction. The pump will need to run about 7-900 RPM depending on the temperature of the syrup. Again I had mine laying around. I also have a fairly complete machine shop which helped tremendously but is certainly not required as everything is available from suppliers in a ready to use form (other than aligning the pump & pulley shaft which will take some creativity)
1-3" pulley with bore size matching the motor $5.00
1-6" pulley with bore matching the pump shaft/pulley shaft $6.00
1-"V" belt $4.00
1- heavy metal base with ribbing for rigidity. To be determined on an individual basis
1-Bracket system to allow precise alignment of the shaft the couples the pulley with the pump. I made mine out of 3"X3"X1/4" aluminum angle material. I used one section bolted to the base plate so one leg is flat on the base and the other leg is vertical and a second section with a leg against the vertical leg of the first section and the other leg horizontal which has teh two pillow block shaft bearings sitting on it. Between the two angle brackets there is a "Z" shape. There needs to be a provision made where the top section can be pricisely adjusted up/down for horizontal alignment of the pump shaft & the pulley shaft AND another provision made so the pillow bearing blocks can be adjusted axially so the pulley shaft aligns with the pump
axially as well. The flex couplings will allow a certain amount of misalignment but I did a ton of research on this and the better the alignment is the longer the pump seal will last. Poor alignment will mean a trashed pump in short order. This is likely the most challenging part of the build.
I placed the pump/motor/shaft etc on a 1/8" steel plate and then added 2 pieces of 1/8" wall 2"X2" aluminum square tube bolted the length of the plate for rigidiity because the belt tension will pull the shaft bracket down if the plate is not rigid enough.
This pump system sits directly under my tub/vat/tank. I plumbed the tub drain directly to the pump input using 1-1/2" pvc with 3 90* elbows, a detachable coupling and a drain valve.
From the pump output I plumbed up to my two sprays bars using 1-1/4" PVC, another detachable coupling, another drain valve and 2 45* elbows leading up to a valve, a "T" connection and my two spray bars that go through a hole in the tub on both sides. The spray bars are 1" pvc with 70 3/32" holes drilled down the legth of each bar. The two spray bars point toward each other as the liquid is being pumped and I simply dip the frames between these bars and the comb fills up almost completely.
I have empty frames in deep boxes on the left and I fill them and place them in plastic totes on the right side of the tub. With the totes places right next to the tub there is nowhere for drops to fall other than in the tub.
I know this is not the clearest explanation of this system but hopefully anyone that is interested in building this type of system will get the idea.
It is not a turn key set of components and will require some outside assistance is one is not well equipped and attention in the area of shaft alignment and mounting base is very important.

Please feel free to ask questions but please don't throw stones. I know this setup is a good amount of work and costs more than a garden sprayer, can with holes etc. It is something I wanted to try and although I thought it would become just a pile of parts I am very happy with the outcome and the cost -vs- return,
Thanks
Howard

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#29 ·
I didn't realize there was a time out. I certainly ended up composting the message.
I left my laptop on overnight so the video would download so I am hoping there is an error still remaining on the Beesource tab.
YouTube loaded at, " Howardtoob"
Thanks
 
#30 ·
Challenger_ Thank you for detailed post. I really appreciate the time you put into sharing your creation. I would drop the full frames into hive bodies and pack them out to the yard. If dripping is a concern then sit the hive body on a tub or over a tub and the extra could be poured back into the tank.

As far as robbing I can't see why that would increase the robbing unless your using honey b healthy or something like it. Maybe someone could tell me what would make them do it.

Does the syrup need to be heated? I would think it would be fine.

Again thank you for the ideas to me it makes the most sense out of all the feeder I've seen out there.

I thought of another question....do the bees need to suck up the sugar water like nectar so if can be ripened like honey or do the bees eat it as is?
 
#34 ·
I have such a frame filler. As pointed out earlier W. Kelley had such a unit for sale in the 70's. Beemaid (Canadian beekeeping co-operative) also sold those for awhile. I believe I have one of those models. They are ok on an emergency feeding system. The nice thing about Howardès is he is using an electric motor vrsus the gas powered one I have on my machine. The noise from that machine is irritating. Warm syrup is way better. I do not have a system where I can warm a large quantity of syrup. I find this type of system requires a lot of cleaning to keep the manifold clean. A lot of wax particles tend to accumulate and partially block the holes then next thing you know the syrup is spraying you or is ending up on the floor.

For commercial guys it is just easier to fill a frame feeder. This system is ok for hives that are not especially strong and would have trouble taking syrup because they are sorta weak and temperatures are cool yet they need feed.

Jean-Marc
 
#36 ·
Good point about the particles. Filling frames of comb dislodges debry in/on the frame. I spent a whole day trying to figure out how to prevent the holes from clogging. Then I just took a kitchen screen style strainer and placed it over the drain of the tub and no problem. Almost all the debry floats anyway so it is not a problem for my system except for the particles that can & will sink.
I put caps on the end of my spray bars so it will be easy to uncap them & run a bottle brush through.
I noticed today that some holes were spraying odd so when I was done filling I boiled 3 gallons of water and let that cycle through the machine as I used the drain hose to clean the tub. It cleared out the few spray holes that started acting up but I think I'll clean the bars out before using it again.
A bad spray pattern could easily lead to syrup leaving the tub.
What type of pump is on that machine? I wonder if an electrical conversion is an easy switch. Normally you can trade an electric motor at 2/3 the size of a gas motor. Just need to get the 3450 RPM electric motor.
Thanks
Howard
 
#38 ·
The only filter I have is a large stainless mesh kitchen type strainer that I placed over the tub drain. It does a great job & being large it doesn't keep particles from choking off the pump.
The pump needs a good supply or it will start putting air into the syrup.
When I reuse the excess syrup from a previous session I strain it going into the tub as well. It is just a little precaution but is too easy to not do.
Thanks
 
#39 ·
It would help if you didn't suck the syrup directly off the bottom. If you put a pipe in the drain to raise the inlet 1 or 2 inches off the bottom. The light debris floats to the top surface and the heavy debris sinks to the bottom. This would be typical for any hydraulic application.
 
#40 ·
Well I love it! going to build one with a jacket for running HFCS. Mocking it up this weekend with a Diaghapram pump I use to feed HFCS anyway (truck mounted hose reel)
One question I have you mentioned a syrup your buying thats surcrose and cheaper than HFCS?? what and where?

Charlie
 
#41 ·
Atlantic sugar refining in Charlotte, NC is where I've gotten my syrup.
I don't want to squash your idea but I don't think a diaphragm pump be satisfactory. If you feel otherwise then build it & let me know how it performs.
In my exhaustive research I learned there are 2 or 3 type of pump for high vulome, high viscous fluid. An internal or external gear pump, mine being the external type, and a lobe pump. If I recall correctly a diaphragm pump will cause a lot of pulsation in the output if it is a size pump that will provide the volume*whicb, again if I recall, is about 16 GPM for the system I made. A small diaphragm pump doesn't pulsate as much but doesn't provide the volume.
Just passing on what, I think, I learned.
Ideally a direct mount pump with integrated gear reduction would be so much easier to build. My problem was budget and not knowing for sure what speed reduction I would needs for syrup.
Good luck.

Oh-to he poster before you I like the idea of a small stub at the drain. I'd like to try a version but one with a ,"U" turn so there is even less chance of particles suspended in the liquid to get in the supply.
In reality I'll continue with how it is setup now. It really seems to be hassle free and, in my personal experience, going forward sometimes means going backward.
I am almost always tempted to fix things that aren't broken. In this case I'll try to avoid this tendency due to having a machine I am more than happy with plus having a bit of burnout. .
Thanks
 
#52 ·
FYI that diagphram pump works just fine. Mocked it up today. washtub like yours on top a old jacketed botteling tank. Will use the tank to heat the HFCS, and drain right back into it (with a screen)..... but that Diaphram pumps is just great..... looks and works just like yours in the video...
 
#56 ·
For anyone interested I am posting a final video on youtube. Look, if you are so inclined, at, "Howardtoob"
Here are a few photos of one way to make this pump.
Thanks

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#58 ·
You are right. Ball bearing would be better. Bronze sleeve as well would be better. I had the shaft & pillow blocks already so I didn't have to spend $. They are cast iron and being the shaft is aligned within .002" with a flexible coupling the pulley shaft "should" live longer than me so long as I keep some oil in the blocks.
Remember it is running relatively slow.
Also, if you recall, I needed to do this on a budget. I sell honey and contribute proceeds to a cancer foundation. Before spending $ it only makes sense to use what is available free and upgrade if/when the system is proven. In my case I'll let it spin until I smell smoke.
For anyone thinking of a build using a shaft for speed reduction Ace bird is correct-use a BB block for the shaft. Shaft alignment is just as important with any type of bearing block no matter what anyone says.
Thanks
Howard
 
#59 ·
I understand. You could very well get away with what you have being vigilant on the oiling. keep your ear on the sound of the motor. If you hear it straining the load is not only on the motor it is on that first bearing due to "belt pull". As you have stated, gear pumps are not forgiving. Load ups can happen instantly both on the vacuum side and the pressure side.

FYI - I would like to see a drip cover over that open frame motor but not so much that it impends the cooling air.
 
#60 ·
Auto part Vehicle
Floor Flooring Tile Wood Ceiling


I think I got pics uploaded. FYI cold straight HFCS runs great no nead to heat. 2 things to change, deeper tub for splash (note I did include cleanouts for spray wands) and a bypass hose so you can lower the pressure. with 1-1 ratio there is too much pressure and syrup actually splashes back out of the comb. Also note I had to cut the plastic out of the sink trap, otherwise the drainback was a little slow.
 
#64 ·
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I think I got pics uploaded. FYI cold straight HFCS runs great no nead to heat. 2 things to change, deeper tub for splash (note I did include cleanouts for spray wands) and a bypass hose so you can lower the pressure. with 1-1 ratio there is too much pressure and syrup actually splashes back out of the comb. Also note I had to cut the plastic out of the sink trap, otherwise the drainback was a little slow.

I like this and would have considered using this pump if I had one as well. Nice to be able to call upon the pump for double duty.
Acebird is right about using the largest supply hose that you can. It may be that the bottling tank doesn't have a bung large enough to go any bigger but even if you upsize it right from the tanks it will help a lot. Even perhaps easier would be to bag the bottling tank. The pump will handle unheated syrup easily so it will be thicker coming out and you can use another vat or go straight into the pump from the tub drain. I really think heating the syrup is posing more of a problem than helping.
I used small sections of "Spa Hose" on the inlet & outlet of mine. That's why the plumbing looks a little crocked. It is flexed a bit from the memory this type hose has. It is PVC and easily glued and it will not collapse whereas the vinyl you are using will collapse easily as I am sure you know.
I used "spigot" 90* elbows which make the spray bars about 2-2 1/2" closer together than slip/slip 90* fittings. If I were to do it again I would make them with even closer. I'd like them to be about 3" apart. This would also reduce splashing if it was an issue.
Do you have your spray bars shooting downward?
Nice system. Have you filled a lot of frames? I checked out some hives I put syrup frames in today. I had some strong hives that were a bit light so I gave them each 5 frames and they have cleaned these frames out and stored the syrup somewhere below the top box I guess. This is good because the queen could become bound up with too much syrup. Our flow is staring up here for sure so I don't need the hives swarming due to my over feeding.
All in all I think this is how I am going to feed period. I am getting rid of the many buckets I have as well as the many nuc tops with holes for jars/buckets. The buckets have always been such a PIA to keep clean and to clean the lids on etc.
Jamming frames full of syrup into a hive is golden to me. Puts the food right there in front of the bees with no issues that come with other methods. I used to open feed sometimes and that was easy but has it's drawbacks so no more of that either for me.
Fair warning though-it could be a bad deal if 1:1 syrupis used IMO. I think this will bring too much H2O into the hives and the bees will need to work to evaporate it and it could mean condensation developing. I'll stick (no pun intended) to the 2:1 even in the "queen castles" I use to make queens.
Looking forward to all the designs people come up with. Simpler is better and you have me beat on that count for sure.
 
#67 ·
I used "spigot" 90* elbows which make the spray bars about 2-2 1/2" closer together than slip/slip 90* fittings. If I were to do it again I would make them with even closer.
If you use vinyl like Gmcharlie, you can use a "Y" fitting and then you can put the spray bars at any distance you want. You will also have a better flow than using the "T" fitting.
 
#61 ·
Humor an old man charlie. You're going to throw that bin away anyway so try this: Stop up that sink strainer you have in the center and cut a big hole in the side of the tub that would let the level get to about 4 inches until it spills out into your vessel below. You will obviously have to change the arrangement you have there. I think that will cut down your splash.
Another note, make your vacuum side hose as large as you can and as short as you can. Almost like a flexible coupling. On a warm day the hose might collapse and shut down the flow.
What is that stainless tank? That is a nice tank.
 
#62 ·
This is a good thread!

Ace design one...you seem to know something about this. Give us details on exactly what design yours would be and what components. Cost of course is important.

Better yet start a thread that takes us through the process of actually building one and when it's finished offer it for sale here. You could share your knowledge, donate the money from your first one. Making the world a better place one Ace bird auto frame filing feed pump at a time.
 
#68 ·
The tank I used was a bottleing tank... When I talked to Ron Housholder a cpl years ago he mentioned heating it to get it in the comb. I assumed that would be required. His system is a but different and he heats it to 160 Deg. I had then bought supercell combs to start hives with but couldn't find a way to fill combs. This was so sweet and simple. and it works with cold hfcs, or you could heat it in an attempt to kill bacteria.
The outlet for the botteling tank is 1" and it pumps sweet, no need for a larger suction line either as you can see the pump is also gravity fed.

ACebird, not sure what you mean by the hole and less splash? all the splash problem is from the pump streams hitting the comb. full submersion would help that.... I intend to build a steel version this summer.

Challenger, I don't think your going to want to feed this way all year. Robbing and such will be an issue, as well as you won't know syrup from honey. My goal/ intention is 2 fold. first Starts, getting new splits and packages moving when there is little nectar or flow. the second will be wintering. I take all honey I can and let the hives do what the can... this will allow me to add back more feed, and increase survivors.
 
#70 ·
Well I think in Rons case the syrup has cooled a bit before it hits, I also know his are OLD comb... not much wax left in them!
I am going to play with the splash issue. start filling frames today, I have about 600 to do. its a balance between pressure to get it in the hole and do much washing it back out.
 
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