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  1. #1
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    Aug 2011
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    Rideau Lakes, Ontario, Canada.
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    Default CCD, new Nucs and splits

    A few questions if everyone doesn't mind?

    I went into the fall with 4 hives and lost two early on to CCD - hives are completely empty of bees and the honey hasn't been touched - I will use it to feed the new Nucs I'll be installing in May. I've lost another one to I believe the cold and possibly humidity - we gone from minus 44 weather to plus 10 all within a week and the weather continues to fluctuate. Only one survivor right now.

    So question one: is there any thing to be concerned about installing a new nuc into a previously abandoned hive that is suspected of CCD?

    Question two: With respect to splits and new Nucs - I'm hoping that my one hive continues to survive and that I can use it to actually produce my own queens for my splits. If I can do this and raise a small number of queens what would be the best way to go about increasing my hives from my new Nucs. Can you split Nucs right away or should I wait until end of June to split.

    Or should I split my surviving hive and use one of the Nucs to produce my queens.

    The other question I have is that I see a lot of advice regarding splits where the new hive is moved two miles away. I only have two and half acres of land so this is not feasible. How important is this and is there a different way to go about increasing my hive numbers.

    Thank you

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    The OP asked:

    So question one: is there any thing to be concerned about installing a new nuc into a previously abandoned hive that is suspected of CCD?

    If you REALLY had CCD, you will confirm it by using the equipment over and quickly killing the bees the next fall. It is your call.

    Crazy Roland

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    1,580

    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    Q2: There is a thread on making nuc splits today. Read up on it is very good too.
    Under the ideal condition is the best time to make a split from your hive be it right now or at the end of June. Are they in the most ideal condition yet?
    And you don't have to move the split 2 miles away. A 2.5 acre is enough for the space. There are many ways to make a hive increase when you do a search here.

    Q1: Like Roland said, why do it again this year. There are many unconfirmed theories about CCD including diseases, parasites, and pesticides, etc. All we know is many bees had disappeared from their hives. On youtube
    CCD documentary, a beekeeper had lost 70,000 hives all the way up the hill. But they all flew away just like your hives. My own theory is the bees not like the location they're at either their hives, food source, mites, or living conditions. It is unconfirm so I am just thinking here. There must be something that they not like about it. My thinking is more about their living environments. Have you provide enough shelter for the hives like a wind break panel? And enough foods close by for them to eat so they would likely to stay. How about protection from pests like the ants, etc? I had 2 hives before that would not leave their hives even when infested with ants all over. I wish the queen bee would leave along with the worker bees but she did not until a few hundred of bees left. There must be something that they like about this wind proof sheltered area with plenty of foods and water around the farm. Honey bees are very loyal to their home. Only in extreme circumstances that the queen decided to leave and the workers follow her. My thinking is still of an environmental factor at play here. If it were me I would not use the box and frames for another package of bees. And not put the same bees at the same location. One hive might be able to withstand this environment while the other one cannot as seen on youtube just next to each others on the same hive stand. Bees have their own minds no matter what we human think.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Stromness, Scotland
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    124

    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    In CCD the bees leave the hive to die, not because they want to move somewhere else.

    Scientific studies have shown that CCD is caused by neonicotinoid pesticides which the bees pick up with their forage in summer.
    They show no symptoms, but seem to produce only summer bees instead of winterbees which are short lived and therefore you end up with empty hives.
    I would not feed the remaining honey to other colonies, as it could still contain traces of these highly toxic pesticides.

    If you can't move your bees away from the area where they collected the contaminated nectar and pollen, you probably won't be able to keep bees alive anymore.
    We need to ban these pesticides, before we have no bees left.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Wildlife View Post
    A few questions if everyone doesn't mind?

    I went into the fall with 4 hives and lost two early on to CCD
    last I knew there was no observed cases of CCD in Canada, has that changed? thats one of the reasons the border is closed to keep it out.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Stromness, Scotland
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    124

    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    last I knew there was no observed cases of CCD in Canada, has that changed? thats one of the reasons the border is closed to keep it out.
    The border is not closed to the pesticides.

    If there are no confirmed cases, it's probably because the authorities are making a special effort not to find it, just like here in the UK.

  7. #7
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    from 2010 but also repeated with the same wording in 2011
    http://capabees.com/main/files/pdf/2010winterloss.pdf


    Is CCD in Canada?

    The symptoms by which CCD is being characterized in the U.S. have not been routinely diagnosed by professional apiculturists in Canada. Though Canadian bees do not seem to be experiencing classic CCD-like symptoms, it is important to emphasize than higher levels of wintering and spring mortality in Canada may be related to the same casual factors as CCD losses in the U.S. Because longer winter conditions preclude the active brooding and flying of colonies found in early-season pollination areas of the U.S., colonies in Canada may not exhibit similar colony-level symptoms. Instead, it is conceivable that Canadian producers may simply see these effects as higher numbers of dead colonies following winter or those described as dwindling during early spring.

    now in reference to the above statement mehat nasar from canada commented on it on bee-l
    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...%3BMatches&z=4
    Peter quoted CAPA's report:


    > Instead, it is conceivable that Canadian producers may simply see these
    effects as higher numbers of dead colonies following winter or those
    described as dwindling during early spring.

    > Most scientists in the U.S. and Canada would agree that what is being
    described as CCD in the U.S. and the high winter losses seen in Canada are
    likely being caused by several common interacting stress factors acting on
    honey bee colonies.

    A word of caution:

    - Check the meaning of word conceivable.
    - Check the statement : "Most scientists in the U.S. and Canada would
    agree that what is being described as CCD in the U.S. and the high winter
    losses seen in Canada are likely being caused by several common
    interacting stress factors acting on honey bee colonies."

    This statement has become a "common" statement included in most of
    recently published research on honey bees mortality. So, Study bee stress.
    We need a tool to measure bee stress or a bee Psychologist to evaluate
    bees' stress.


    I will say when Canadian Apiculturists worked with the industry on
    controlling Varroa and Nosema, we are seeing positive results. The
    following statement is in the report:

    Compared with the previous three years, mortality across regions has been
    less variable and generally lower. Extension professionals in Canada
    attribute the improvement in colony losses, in part, to the availability
    of a new Varroa mite control product, Apivar®, which contains the active
    ingredient Amitraz. This product was made available to beekeepers under
    emergency use registration (EUR) for the fall of 2010. Effective use of
    existing mite control products, such as those containing formic or oxalic
    acid, also contributed to improved mite control in 2009-10.
    Additional factors that contributed to increases in colony survival in
    2010 were enhanced sampling and control for the honey bee internal
    parasite Nosema ceranae as well as greater intensity of monitoring for
    other pests and diseases in major beekeeping areas.

    Key words:
    Monitoring, Apivar (Effective varroa treatment) and control of nosema

    Medhat


    Medhat Nasr, Ph. D.
    Provincial Apiculturist
    Crop Diversification Centre North
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Rideau Lakes, Ontario, Canada.
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    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    Thanks for the input - if CCD was stopped at the border that would be perhaps the only thing we have stopped - that coming from a former border guard

    As for the environmental issue - I dont really belive that would be the case - I have close to 300 acres of woods along with unframed fields and some farmed fields surrounding my hives. I am also only about 500 yards from one of the cleanest waterways in Ontario. There are other beekeeps with 30 to 50 hives that are only a 5 minute drive away from me and his bees would be foraging more on the farm land than mine and he has been keeping bees for years.

    I did have a mite issue as well but I didnt think that bees left the hive due to mites - I will talk to some of my locals and see what their opinion is of CCD but when I went to my nuc supplier ( a Keep with over 100 hives ) he wasnt selling any this year as he stated he was expected higher than normal rates of loss due to CCD.

    Cheers

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    from you post: I went into the fall with 4 hives and lost two early on to CCD .
    from medhat's post I will say when Canadian Apiculturists worked with the industry on
    controlling Varroa and Nosema, we are seeing positive results. The
    following statement is in the report:

    I don't know if CCD is up there but medhat has done alot of work and what I interpret he is saying control the mites and nosema and you will get better survival. where you say you lost them early seems more like varroa problems. Parts of Canada from what I have heard have also had a tough winter, I know I see more cars that normal heading South with canadian plates this year, and they are all smiling like the previous face, add them together and I would guess that there will be hi losses this year. hope you find some nucs.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
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    3,819

    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    So Roland sir! What do you do with the old equipment? Burn it all? Salvage the honey and wax? Scorch the boxes and covers and BB's? I just got thru trashing 170 used boxes of foulbrood I bought last year along with what equipment I commingled. DO I get to do that if and when ccd visits me?
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    The OP asked:

    So question one: is there any thing to be concerned about installing a new nuc into a previously abandoned hive that is suspected of CCD?

    If you REALLY had CCD, you will confirm it by using the equipment over and quickly killing the bees the next fall. It is your call.

    Crazy Roland

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Peace River, AB Canada
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    456

    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    Stuart you mention you had a mite issue, did you sample or treat? Varroa mites vector bee viruses that are harmful to the colony. Add nosema and it would be very difficult for a hive to survive.
    In Alberta since monitoring nosema and varroa levels closely and treating as necessary we have improved our overwintering success. Economic threshold levels are 3% or greater for varroa and over 1 million spores/bee for nosema

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Rideau Lakes, Ontario, Canada.
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    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    For mites - I was mite free up until one hive was infected in August - I lost that hive in late august - they were Russians - didnt actually mind loosing those too much.

    The other hives I added bottom screen boards to and in Septmber and "treated" only with sugar powdering and essential oil patties.

    There was definitely one hive that was fairly highly affected and the others didnt seem that bad - I do have have a true count - something I will be trying to do this season, both powdered sugar, essential oils, drone interuption, etc - trying to remain natural.

    As for nosema - dont know enough about that one yet - any natural treatments for them?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Peace River, AB Canada
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    456

    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    Whether you treat or not it would definitely be a good idea to sample your hives if for nothing else but to take some of the guess work out of losses.
    As far as a natural treatment for nosema I think thymol syrup is what many people use.
    If you had "issues" with varroa then I would be pretty certain you had mites before August. If you monitor at least once in spring and once mid to late summer it will help you make decisions. If you treat then sample after treatment to make sure it was effective.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    Vance, you said the "C" word - commingled.....baaaaaaad. We bought all new bees and all new equipment and DID NOT Co-mingle, We could then make a comparison between the two groups. The old equipment was sterilized with a large piece of expensive equipment, the details of which are the "64,000 dollar" question. Irradiation is a similar solution. we are in effect running two operations, and hive tools, etc, are cleaned off when we switch between sets of yards.

    Yup, get good at sterilization, or burning and making new equipment. We are looking at making our own woodenware and foundation( to the specs. of 100 years ago), just to encourage the routine replacement of equipment.

    Crazy Roland(no sir needed)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    Great Falls Montana
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    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    Mr. Roland, I don't think CCD has found me yet, but I think I will take your word for it when It happens and have a fire. I'll just make mead out of the honey to drown my sorrow. Too much time in the military makes one big on Sir. Since you have my respect, I hope you don't take it as anything but a display of same. Vance

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: CCD, new Nucs and splits

    Display accepted.

    If you ever do think you have CCD, PM me before you strike that match. That's alot of wood and wax to waste.

    Crazy Roland

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