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  1. #1
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    Default Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Without debating the cause of CCD. Just a what if.

    If a corporation even thought it was a possibility they would do what ever it took to avoid this. Reduction of active ingredients could reduce the exposure to non target insects and still be effective against pests. Additives to reduce dust, keeping the product from drifting. The corporation wouldn't even have to know for sure. It might just be logical steps any company would take with any product. Then CCD might just disappear without a trace.

    If this is the case we will not see CCD again!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Without debating my answer. No.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Since you're speculating... Suppose we can target just one so called "pest" and eliminate it without affecting any other insect? Now haven't we dramatically altered the ecosystem by eliminating one species of bug? If so, then haven't you affected the other insects anyways? Suppose the pest you eliminated was a major food source for a beneficial predatory insect, arachnid, or anura (frog/toad/etc). Now the predators start to die off. With the predators gone a different pest that was previously well controlled by the predators now has no natural enemy and begins to reproduce without natural constraints. What if the new population is a carrier of a virus that can affect other beneficial insects, a virus that until now was limited simply by being carried by a small population. But that population has exploded, and with it the virus. Meanwhile, we discover that the pest we eliminated favored snacking on a certain fungus along with the seed we were trying to protect. Now the fungus starts to spread. Whether you are tinkering with evolution or playing god (depending on your -ism) there are many variables, and so far our track record just hasn't been very good. Kinda begs the question, "what is a pest?"

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    ck out NWNJ Beekepers, they just had a speaker name I think was Tom Jodczak Maine state apiarist, hes been on the job since late 80s to this day he said they have never seen a dead out caused by neonic's and he was seeing CCD back in the early 90s up on Prince Edward Island he gets to see the bees after almonds in cali and citrus, he says most dead outs are either varroa or nosema. the video is like 45 minutes but very interesting.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    Without debating the cause of CCD. Just a what if.

    If a corporation even thought it was a possibility they would do what ever it took to avoid this. Reduction of active ingredients could reduce the exposure to non target insects and still be effective against pests.
    Uninformed wishful thinking.

    Why would they do this when there is absolutely no proof that pesticides (I assume that you are talking about neonics) are not the cause of CCD? Furthermore, CCD is a completely undefined problem; other than your bees are dead and you are looking at somebody to blame.

    As far as reducing the amount of pesticides, neonics are already used in tiny amounts as compared to organophosphates and other old delisted pesticides. So what is the problem?
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    Without debating the cause of CCD. Just a what if.

    If a corporation even thought it was a possibility they would do what ever it took to avoid this. Reduction of active ingredients could reduce the exposure to non target insects and still be effective against pests. Additives to reduce dust, keeping the product from drifting. The corporation wouldn't even have to know for sure. It might just be logical steps any company would take with any product. Then CCD might just disappear without a trace.

    If this is the case we will not see CCD again!
    Seeing as how the same symptoms of collapse and die-off (that today some are calling "CCD") were observed and described centuries before the invention of Monsanto and neonics and other chemical pesticides, this seems very unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by umchuck View Post
    ck out NWNJ Beekepers, they just had a speaker name I think was Tom Jodczak Maine state apiarist, hes been on the job since late 80s to this day he said they have never seen a dead out caused by neonic's and he was seeing CCD back in the early 90s up on Prince Edward Island he gets to see the bees after almonds in cali and citrus, he says most dead outs are either varroa or nosema. the video is like 45 minutes but very interesting.
    That's Tony Jadczak, he is very knowledgeable. I expect to be talking with him sometime in the next few weeks.

    Last night I met with a guy who knows Tony well. We discussed an accidental "experiment" in which 40 hives were inadvertently left in a yard in GA and received no attention for a season. 25 of those were wiped out- the post mortem did indeed indicate varroa as the primary culprit. The remaining hives that survived, apparently did so because they swarmed and interrupted the brood/mite life-cycle.

    Short of introducing a genetic alteration to the bee that causes them to produce a substance toxic to mites (or at least, makes them unpalatable), I think that varroa is here to stay and treating for it/controlling it must be one of the primary concerns for those who keep bees. In my opinion, attempts to breed bees that are "resistant" to mites are...misguided...at best. The natural evolution of some bees, which has allowed them to coexist with mites, took place over a huge time-scale. To think that such an occurrence can be mimicked by artificial substituting artificial selection in place of natural selection, over the relatively puny life cycle of humans (and without introducing an undesired trait) smacks of either hubris or ignorance. A propensity to swarm seems to me to be the most effective "natural" solution to coexistence with mites, but this trait is inimical to those who wish to keep bees to produce a surplus crop of honey and requires more labor and attention on the part of the keeper, which would drive up the cost of the product.
    Zone 4a/b

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    >Without debating my answer. No.
    Not even a possibility, a corporation won't even take precaution?

    >absolutely no proof that pesticides (I assume that you are talking about neonics) are not the cause of CCD
    The cause of CCD is unknown/unproven at this time. and if CCD does not show up again it will remain that way.

    >As far as reducing the amount of pesticides, neonics are already used in tiny amounts as compared to organophosphates and other old delisted pesticides.
    As with any pesticide/herbicide the dose is measured to give 100% effectiveness with a wide range of pests, weeds, in every possible environment there is plenty of room to adjust the dose and still be 100% effective. You can see this with roundup, the rate it is applied to crops often exceeds what is actually needed, look at the drift on the edges where the wind has blown the spray. You still get 100% effective kill rate in the crop and enough extra to kill weeds sometime 2' away depending on wind.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    Without debating the cause of CCD.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    >Without debating my answer. No.
    Not even a possibility, a corporation won't even take precaution?
    And you said....without debating.....and who's the first to start a debate?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Still without debating the cause of CCD.

    Will a corporation take precautions?
    Just found this;
    https://www.bayercropscience.us/news...nter-lubricant

    Bayer; "its new seed application technology, which is designed to further reduce potential dust exposure to honey bees during a typical planting process"

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    Still without debating the cause of CCD.

    Will a corporation take precautions?
    Just found this;
    https://www.bayercropscience.us/news...nter-lubricant

    Bayer; "its new seed application technology, which is designed to further reduce potential dust exposure to honey bees during a typical planting process"
    Is there a problem with Bayer doing this?
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    if they changed the active ingedient they would have to get a new label, anyone seen a new label
    mike syracuse ny
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    In my opinion, and without debate . . .

    Your initial and follow up comments have several logical fallacies.

    You explicitly state that you do not wish to engage in debate, then when the response does not fit your world view, you began a debate.
    You make a causality between (presumably) seed coating and colony collapse disorder. Yet, there are even in the group that fervently believes CCD is caused by agricultural chemicals, there is a wide range of conjectures what causes CCD.

    In essence, a setup question. That is, "have you stopped beating your wife? You may only answer 'yes' or 'no'."

    There is serious regulatory and testing requirements for any chemical that is used in the agro business. A "simple" change would require potentially millions of investment just to get it on the shelves.

    If you truly believe that agricultural chemicals, specifically seed coating causes CCD, may I suggest an alternate approach? It would bring you more credibility.

    Research the chemicals used for seed coating. Research how those chemicals interact with soil, plant, flowers and nectar. Research how those chemicals interact with insects. Once completed, publish your empirical scholarly paper for peer review. Even if I disagreed with your conclusion, I would consider your work respectable.

    Just a thought.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    if they changed the active ingedient they would have to get a new label, anyone seen a new label
    They did not change the active ingredient, it is an inert dust control technology using poly wax rater than talc or graphite.

    The article also says that Bayer announced very favorable field trial results of its new seed application technology. They are a long way from relabeling and we don't even know if it will be needed.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by gjt View Post
    You explicitly state that you do not wish to engage in debate, then when the response does not fit your world view, you began a debate.
    I don't see anywhere that was said, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by gjt View Post
    "have you stopped beating your wife? You may only answer 'yes' or 'no'."
    Truly your on the wrong forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    Is there a problem with Bayer doing this?
    It is a good thing, Only good can come from it. What compelled them to do this we will never know.

    Do you think CCD is gone for good?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post

    It is a good thing, Only good can come from it. What compelled them to do this we will never know.

    Do you think CCD is gone for good?
    I am going to have to bow out of this one. I can't tell what the point is that you are trying to make.




    Regarding gjt's wife question, when we were kids the joke was; Do your parents know that you are retarded?
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    I am going to have to bow out of this one. I can't tell what the point is that you are trying to make.
    Yep, if points cannot be made and responded to in a logical manner and with apt reasoning, it's pretty much done.
    Zone 4a/b

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    I don't see anywhere that was said, do you?
    You wrote -
    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    Without debating the cause of CCD.[...]
    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    Truly your on the wrong forum
    I was attempting at a striking analogy, to demonstrate the logical trap.

    Either way, my intention was not to rile but to point out the predicament you, probably unintentionally put people in while discussing (but not debating) the topic with.

    I do not believe anyone has a definite answer what is/was the source of CCD, therefore who can answer if it "is good for good"?

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    I was not looking for a CCD debate there are plenty of those, which apparently that's all you get when you make a CCD thread.

    I was simply keeping an open mind and looking at different possibilities, just “what if”

    “What if” a corporation thought it was a possibility, could they have taken precaution to protect themselves and their products. That was the question. I later found out they have taken precaution to prevent dust drift specifically to protect bees. In Bayer’s link from above.

    Is it possible they made any of these changes to reduce dust round about the time CCD stopped?

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    Do you think CCD is gone for good?
    Still without debating here's a what if.

    What if we continue to have these 3 ingredients - bees, varroa mites, and people.

    What is the chance that some time, some place, someone will "find" some CCD?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Has Seed Coating Changed? CCD gone for Good!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    What is the chance that some time, some place, someone will "find" some CCD?
    Ohhhhh, ohhh, oh, me, me, me (Horseshack quote from Mr. Kotter. How about that from the way back reference category?)

    Someone will claim to "find" it, then will require/demand copious amounts of money, resources, and political power given to fix a problem that has yet to be defined, understood or even proven to actually exist.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

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