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young newbee

62K views 92 replies 26 participants last post by  Fergus 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
My daughter, has decided to do a 4H directed study in beekeeping. We have a rather unique situation, and I gather that beekeeping is much like child-rearing... there is no one right way to do it. So, I want to offer our situation and get some input - before we buy lumber! We live in a research forest in Northern BC, and have visitors (researchers/students/recreational) out at our camp regularly. We also have lots of bears and other critters.

We have a small island 550 meters offshore, and I would like to put the hive(s) there. Wind is minimal, south-facing shore of island faces our cabin, lots of trees on the north side. This keeps the bees away from human interference, most animal interference, and allows my daughter to obsess over them through binoculars. It is a five-minute kayak ride out, easy to access and we can intervene quickly if need be. We are still planning an electric fence, as moose sometimes swim out to birth. I imagine that a bear could easily cross, if properly motivated. There is not enough forage on the island alone, so the bees will also have to cross.

We are planning on a Warre-ish sized hive for weight and portability issues (remember, 9 years old, kayak, and a small mom). I like the top entrance idea, as we do have otters resident on island, and other mesocarnivores visiting. Is that wierd? A top-entrance on a Warre-ish hive? Finally, we are thinking top bars over frames. This is for fun and education. Max expectations: enough honey for the bees and us, beeswax for crafts. We are going chem free - kids and chems don't mix. If they are not healthy, I'll let them die (bees, not kids).

Any direction is appreciated - just please keep our circumstances in mind. Specific questions - screened bottom board needed? Bottom drilled hole(s) for housekeeping/drones? is a simple entrance feeder good enough? how do you mix a top-entrance w/a quilt? concerns about island location?

I thought the sow/piglet moms had it tough...
 
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#63 · (Edited by Moderator)
Oy vay :) Having fun, fellas?

Update: My daughter (who is fully vaccinated) installed her first Warre hive this weekend past. She dubbed it "Cinnamon". We installed the bees on a lovely, warm still morning. Mid-morning it turned cold, rainy and windy and has kept up that way for three days. All of the attendant bees in the queen box were dead, but her highness seemed fine. They HAVE released her, good news.

We were gifted with a lang nuc, which was a wonderful pain in the tush. We used a piece of plywood w/ the appropriate size hole, to go between the nuc box and the top of two warre boxes, which are nadired below. So far, they have no interest in moving down. I've read about cutting the frames to fit, shaking the bees and isolating the queen below w/a queen excluder, etc. Right now, we are trying patience.

Don't get your feathers all fluffed up over the medication/no-medication. We've been gifted an untreated nuc, and it would be a shame to undo all the work that the previous beek put into THAT. Just do what works best for you, and share your successes! If you have the guts, share your failures too. We can all learn from both, with gratitude.

I'll update again, successes and failures both, with photos soon. Thanks again for all the input! Daughter is totally digging the windows, and we ended up putting the hive as close as possible to our cabin. Guess who was waiting for me just outside the back door this morning? A black bear. Sheesh.
 
#65 · (Edited by Moderator)
Oy vay :) Having fun, fellas?

Update: My human 9 year old (who is fully vaccinated) installed her first Warre hive this weekend past. She dubbed it "Cinnamon". We installed the bees on a lovely, warm still morning. Mid-morning it turned cold, rainy and windy and has kept up that way for three days. All of the attendant bees in the queen box were dead, but her highness seemed fine. They HAVE released her, good news.

I'll update again, successes and failures both, with photos soon. Thanks again for all the input! Daughter is totally digging the windows, and we ended up putting the hive as close as possible to our cabin. Guess who was waiting for me just outside the back door this morning? A black bear. Sheesh.

Congratulations on becoming a new beek. Sorry to hear about that black bear. Did you fence-in the hive?

With regards to getting the bees to build down, Bush_84 is right. The principle actually came from Bernhard (building a ladder). And I've applied it last year on my bees myself.

Good luck. I'll be looking forward to photos, too.
 
#66 · (Edited by Moderator)
My failure has been assuming they would move down. ...
Well, my bees, last year did not move ether up or down - apparently, they wanted to move horizontal... I build for them a horizontal hive compatible with Lang's frames. They filled it up pretty quickly amd I decided to split them. Splitting did not work at all, but girls got deep-size vertical addition :). It confuses them for a while, but now, they sorted everything out and have a massive honey storage in the upper part. Good luck with your bees! Tell your daughter, that we are all very proud of her!
 
#68 · (Edited by Moderator)
It would go against the natural inclination of bees to make a top entry. They naturally make comb on the top of the cavity of a tree,or the top of a frame, first for brood, then for winter storage of honey. They work their way down, leaving filled comb overhead. As winter progresses they eat their way back upwards. Some feel this is a way to provide some insulation as well as food. Warre hives will show this nicely. I use warre nearly exclusively, it is obvious in the smaller boxes. Best of luck!
 
#69 · (Edited by Moderator)
It continues to be cold, windy and wet. The colony is active during breaks in weather, foraging on alder catkins and dandelions. We hung both a wax strip and a strip of birch bark from the middle top bar, in the warre box directly under the lang nuc.

The lang nuc bottom is completely open to the top bars of the warre box below, so hopefully we see some movement downward soon. We are going to stop with all hive manipulations for a week, as long as we see activity/foraging going on. When the weather breaks again, I'll get a photo of the hive in place. Here is a photo of daughter setting it up the bottom box. She helped to build/paint/install/etc :)

A photo of the base w/ entry holes, and two warre boxes with windows. Don't worry, we faced the windows the other way when we set it in place! We followed the internal dimensions exactly, but went with two inch (1.5 actual measurement) thick walls, due to our climate.
Wood Furniture Plywood Box
 
#71 · (Edited by Moderator)
Day 12, and the weather is just awful. They are foraging at every break in the rain, and coming back heavy with pollen. There was a huge spike in the number of bees coming/going around Day 9. Yesterday, daughter noticed that there are lots of drone bees hanging out on the outside of the box, and surrounding trees. They are alive, but seem displaced. Have they been kicked out? We also found what looks like drone larvae being tossed out of the bottom of the box. They have food, but are ignoring it in favour of the alder catkins/dandelions. What is going on with the drone annihilation?
 
#73 · (Edited by Moderator)
Day 15. We finally got a break in the weather yesterday. Daughter has been following the bees, to observe where/what they are foraging. She's also been following them to the lake beach, and watching them get water. We saw our first mite today! We've been collecting any dead bees/brood that we find under the hive, and sure enough... two mites (also dead).

There is now a single frame with foundation in the warre box directly under the nuc, but they aren't budging. I don't know how this colony will do, but we sure are having fun watching them.
 
#74 · (Edited by Moderator)
Almost one month in. They are numerous, busy, friendly little bees that will not do what we want them to do - move down. Do we stick with patience here, or is it time to rig a box above the nuc box?

Dd made a small display case for the 4H fair, identifying the different bees, stages of life cycle, a mite, and a bee w/mite attached. We also took a small piece of burr comb that fell off during an inspection. She's been journaling what they are foraging on, etc. She may not have honey by September, but it is has been a super fun project for her.
 
#75 · (Edited by Moderator)
Are there any frames in the nuc that do not have brood? If so, remove them & replace with bars from the bottom box, attach a longer strip to the top of the bars so they can hang in the nuc box. Spread the remaining combs in the nuc box & put the bars between them so the bees will build comb on them. Once the comb has brood in it, move them down and replace in the nuc with more warre bars for them to build on. Continue till job done.
 
#76 · (Edited by Moderator)
Thanks, Oldtimer. It looks like there may be brood on each of the five frames. I'm not totally confident, as the comb all looks so dark. We are going to shuffle the boxes, putting the nuc between two boxes, each with a frame of foundation. Doing this today.

There are ants hanging around the hive. We don't see any in the boxes, but I am thinking of taking a few preventative measures. We are going to place cedar chips under the hive. Can we sprinkle diatomaceous earth in the chips, or will this harm the bees? The only bees I've seen on the ground have been dead ones...
 
#77 · (Edited by Moderator)
Pretty much all beehives get ants, they are just such a good environment for ants, dry, warm, and the odd rubbish thrown out that ants can scavenge for food. They will not go in areas where the bees are though, in a strong, healthy hive.

Some ant species are totally benign to the bees, and others more aggressive and will put pressure on the bees, always ready to exploit any weakness. So just observe behaviour and see if they are bothering the bees at all.

Re the brood, as a beekeeper you really need to understand what is brood, what isn't, plus the stages of the brood and if it is healthy or not. I'd suggest, if eyesight is the problem, getting some of those cheap reading glasses, and have a look in the hive, looking carefully in the cells and identifying and becoming familiar with what is brood and what isn't.

A huge amount of beekeeping revolves around what's happening with the brood, and not knowing this will greatly limit you. For example, it already has limited you, you cannot perform a basic comb switch to start moving the bees into the Warre, because you cannot identify what is brood.

I would go so far as to say that if you do not totally familiarise yourself what is brood and what isn't, and what is healthy and what isn't, it is almost a certainty that at some point you will lose the hive.
 
#78 · (Edited by Moderator)
Thanks for the ant info!

Re the brood, I would call us bee-observers or bee-giners at this point, not full-fledged beekeepers. It appears (to us) that there is brood on all five frames. Again, having never done this before, we cannot say with 100% accuracy.

I would go so far as to say that even longtime keepers that are well familiarized with every aspect of beekeeping still lose hives :) Thanks for the info, though!!
 
#79 · (Edited by Moderator)
Dd9 put some cedar chips down below the hive bodies, and the ants are virtually gone.

And, it finally happened :) They moved down into the Warre box sometime this week, and it is almost 1/2 full! We are so glad that we have the windows :) I can't imagine trying to do this with a child, as newbees, and not having those windows. It took almost six full weeks for them to move down, and this was the weekend that we were going to try rotating the boxes, so the nuc would have been on the bottom.

They are foraging mostly on rose and thimbleberry, and we've spotted them as far as 1k from the hive. Now, we need to scramble and get more boxes built, as we only started with two.

Sorry for the poor quality of the photo, had to use my phone:

Bee Membrane-winged insect Honeybee Design Insect
 
#80 · (Edited by Moderator)
We had so much feedback and fantastic advice, that I want to keep this thread updated when something happens. The bees have filled two warre boxes and started on a third. There are only four in the stack...

Today we noticed bald faced hornets attacking and killing some of her bees. There are many dead/dying hornets and bees around the hive. We also observed a group of bees "balling" and killing a hornet, which was interesting. The hornets are thriving in a big way this year. Big, big way. We've already killed several nests that were located too close to equipment/living quarters. Another thread mentioned following the hornets and killing the nest - there are just so darn many of them, this doesn't seem practical. We are going to put up 1/4 inch hardware cloth on the hive opening and kill any individuals we see on the hive. One honeybee colony against hundreds of hornet nests... yikes.

Bernhard, the windows were so worth it! She is able to check in on the bees daily, and doesn't need to get dressed up to do it!

edit - the bees hate the hardware cloth, we pried it back off
 
#82 · (Edited by Moderator)
Good to hear you enjoying the windows. It surely is a perfect way to learn something about bees.

Winter is coming and you should begin preparations. I suggest feeding pollen patties and feed small amounts, so they finish the third box, buildup stores and produce fat winter bees.

Think about and prepare for insulation, wind protection and how to keep them dry. A protected hive, lots of stores and healthy fatty bees is what they need now. Winters can be hard to bees and now is the time for preparations.
 
#83 · (Edited by Moderator)
She had a great first season, and is planning on splitting her hive next summer (if it survives winter). She completed a workbook for kids, which was a fantastic resource:

http://www.otago.ac.nz/genetics/otago038245.pdf

She also took a beginner beekeeping course throught the local community college, and I sat in with her. Here is a page from her 'notes':

Drawing Sketch Illustration Ink Handwriting


We would absolutely recommend working with the smaller Warre hives. It was a great way to focus on the basics of bee behaviour and observation, without the overwhelming equipment/manipulation issues of Langs. Then, you have the choice of keeping it simple or adding in equipment/manipulations as you gain confidence. WINDOWS = LEARNING OPPORTUNITIES. Can't emphasize that enough. Getting tucked away for winter:

View attachment 7944

Best of luck heading into winter, fellow northern hemisphere beeks. See you next year!
 
#85 ·
Second year update:

It overwintered with just three boxes - two of honey and one empty one, which we thought might work as a cold sink (like we have in the greenhouse). We are wondering if a black painted Warre box, nadired in fall and removed in the spring, would work as a more efficient heat sink during the day/cold sink at night? In April, we were sure we had lost them, but then the population exploded the first week of May. Just in time for the willow catkins opening on May 8. And they were off.

They survived and are thriving. We didn't treat last fall, or feed this spring. Yesterday, we had to both nadir again and super, so there are now six boxes on this hive. We are excited to see if we get lovely comb honey from the supered box! My husband is having to help with moving things around at this point, because it's getting pretty heavy. I think we will need to both harvest and nadir at least two more boxes in short order. They are building fast.

Daughter has set up a bait hive nearby with two boxes and a frame of comb she froze last fall. We couldn't find lemongrass oil locally, so we just hung a lemon grass stem near the entrance. We're taking a few short holidays this summer - the bait hive is just a small insurance policy.

She had fun over winter, making candles, lip balm... and the sacred HONEY STICKS. The heating element on the impulse sealer burned out after a few hundred sticks. She earned enough selling them to buy another one, but we don't know what to get (suggestions?). She found out that honey sticks are essentially lost leader products, but that lip balm has a nice profit margin. She also found out that she hates making candles with a mould. We are going to try mason jar and dipped candles after the next harvest. Creamed honey is also on the agenda, as is honey rock candy.

She signed on for another self-directed 4H Beekeeping Project. Right now we are building a model Warre hive from cereal boxes. She's going to take that to fair, along with an actual Warre box, honey, all her value-added apiary products (and maybe comb honey?!). An observation hive is still on the distant horizon. Someday.

She wants to build a top bar hive this fall to put out at a friend's farm. She is fascinated by the idea of running a hive with two queens - and a queen excluder in the middle. I know nothing about this, so it will be our next area of research. Onward ho.
 
#87 ·
> The heating element on the impulse sealer burned out after a few hundred sticks. She earned enough selling them to buy another one, but we don't know what to get (suggestions?).

I haven't used a sealer for honey sticks, but a few years ago I occasionally repaired a couple at work. Some sealers have easily replaceable heater strips - and in some cases are sold with replacement/extra heaters as part of the original purchase.

I'm not recommending any particular seller here, just illustrating the concept:

http://www.amazon.com/Impulse-Sealer-Cellophane-Bag-sealer/dp/B000UVMKO8
Note the replacement heaters included above.


Replacement heaters as a separate purchase:

http://www.amazon.com/Impulse-Seale...=1-8&keywords=impulse+sealer+wire+replacement
 
#89 ·
Your project sounds amazing!!! It's wonderful that your daughter wants to do this and that you are so supportive of her. Beekeeping needs lots of young, fresh blood if the bees are going to survive!

I hear your concerns about portability and non-intervention, and I don't want to dissuade you from a Warre if you have your heart set on that (personally, I plan to build some myself this year). However, since this is a 4H project, I thought I'd bring up a key point about Warre's design and methodology. According to him, the People's Hive should be inspected only twice a year -- in spring and in the fall. However, I think that if you're a new beekeeper, you don't really get to learn much about bees this way. Even if you have observation windows, you get a very limited view of what's going on inside the hive (and not even a spectacular view since the bees usually gunk up the window).

The best way to learn about bees is to actually watch them up close. If you have a TBH or Lang, you will need to do more frequent inspections, but you'll get to see so much more -- eggs, larvae, bees emerging from their cells, the queen laying eggs, bees chewing down wood... all kinds of neat stuff happens in a hive. However, you won't be able to observe them with binoculars or even through a window that displays just the edge of the comb.

To be honest, I'm not very familiar with the goals of 4H other than raising livestock, but if you actually want to learn about bees and see the cool things they do, then a different hive might be better for that than a Lang. If honey is the goal, then a Warre is fine.

One other thing, Al Avitable (co-author of The Beekeeper's Handbook and Emeritus Professor of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at UCONN) is a member of my local beekeeping club. We were chit chatting about Warres at the last meeting and he recommended 5 years of beekeeping experience before getting one because they were just more difficult to keep. I think part of the issue is that beeks don't get into the hive enough to know what is normal and abnormal behavior. So if something is wrong, they don't see it.

Again, I don't want to dissuade you if you really want a Warre. However, I would suggest inspecting it more frequently than you originally intended. Or consider a KTBH or HTBH, which are bulky, but you only have to transport them once (and can be mostly assembled on the spot). Also, you don't actually need to open up the brood nest during inspections for a KTBH/HTBH, so even though they require frequent inspections, they are still a low-interference type of hive. Also, once installed, a horizontal hive is much lighter than dealing with full Warre boxes because you are only dealing with 5-8 lbs at a time. I have a KTBH, and my 12-yr old son is able to do all the inspection tasks by himself (under my supervision, of course). Even my 8-year old is able to handle bars of comb easily. As a beek and a mom, it's an amazing feeling when my boys do an inspection with me and express excitement and awe over what they see.

In any case, good luck with your project! I hope you keep us updated on your progress!
 
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