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62K views 92 replies 26 participants last post by  Fergus 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
My daughter, has decided to do a 4H directed study in beekeeping. We have a rather unique situation, and I gather that beekeeping is much like child-rearing... there is no one right way to do it. So, I want to offer our situation and get some input - before we buy lumber! We live in a research forest in Northern BC, and have visitors (researchers/students/recreational) out at our camp regularly. We also have lots of bears and other critters.

We have a small island 550 meters offshore, and I would like to put the hive(s) there. Wind is minimal, south-facing shore of island faces our cabin, lots of trees on the north side. This keeps the bees away from human interference, most animal interference, and allows my daughter to obsess over them through binoculars. It is a five-minute kayak ride out, easy to access and we can intervene quickly if need be. We are still planning an electric fence, as moose sometimes swim out to birth. I imagine that a bear could easily cross, if properly motivated. There is not enough forage on the island alone, so the bees will also have to cross.

We are planning on a Warre-ish sized hive for weight and portability issues (remember, 9 years old, kayak, and a small mom). I like the top entrance idea, as we do have otters resident on island, and other mesocarnivores visiting. Is that wierd? A top-entrance on a Warre-ish hive? Finally, we are thinking top bars over frames. This is for fun and education. Max expectations: enough honey for the bees and us, beeswax for crafts. We are going chem free - kids and chems don't mix. If they are not healthy, I'll let them die (bees, not kids).

Any direction is appreciated - just please keep our circumstances in mind. Specific questions - screened bottom board needed? Bottom drilled hole(s) for housekeeping/drones? is a simple entrance feeder good enough? how do you mix a top-entrance w/a quilt? concerns about island location?

I thought the sow/piglet moms had it tough...
 
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#2 · (Edited by Moderator)
Welcome to Beesource!

An interesting project, for sure. Transporting bees via kayak is definitely a different concept, to say the least! :D

You might want to look a Michael Bush's Top Bar page. Very simple to construct. If you chose to put an insulated top on that would be very easy to incorporate to this design:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm
You could just put a layer of foamboard under the wood lid. Note the bees don't have access to the upper side of the top bars, so they would not be able to chew the foam.
 
#3 · (Edited by Moderator)
Thanks, Graham! So, we would truck this thing out via motorboat at the beginning of the season, and it could stay there? When harvesting honey, it is a little vague about what is appropriate to take home/leave for the bees - any ideas on that? Also, looks like keeping it level is ciritcal - how often should it be checked for level?

This looks viable. After the intial set-up and acclimation period, it looks relatively low-maintenance. I'm going to spend a little time investigating KTBH maintenance and harvest. We are starting to stretch my carpentry skills with the window, but daughter loves it.
 
#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
Having the hive "level", is mostly an issue when the bees are building comb. So of course you need it to be level when first installed. After that, it depends on whether/when you harvest honey, and if there is nectar available for the bees to rebuild.

As far as timing a harvest, I would recommend leaving all honey for the bees the first summer (except perhaps harvest a small amount to maintain a child's interest in the project - perhaps one bar). The following spring you can assess how much they used over the winter and act accordingly.
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
We have a woman about 1.5 hours away. She has 10 colonies, and she may be able to "shake off" some bees for us (assume that means exactly what it sounds like). They have been acclimating to her microclimate for about ten years. The day we visited, she had bees flying at 1 degree C. She's chem free. Or, at least, her bees are.

Never in my life have I seen or looked for a swarm! We have several biologists working the forest in spring... what/where are we looking for a wild swarm???

We've decided to go with the Warre plans for portability. The KTBH is kinda big, and I like the idea of less interference/interaction ;)

I might be inviting trouble with this question... would drilling holes in the top of the uppermost hive box suffice as a top entrance? It's cool here, so I was thinking of drilling holes the "warm" way. It's a little confusing (possibly nuts?) putting a top-entrance on a Warre, as I'm not sure how to incorporate the entrance without closing off the quilt. Google isn't helping.

Also, it sounds like the bees build brood downwards, toward the entrance, as hive boxes are added from below. Am I fighting the bees' instincts, by introducing hive boxes AWAY from the entrance (entrance above, empty boxes below)? Should I (gulp) be adding hive boxes above, and harvesting honey from the lower boxes, as the bees move brood toward the entrance? Show patience with me, people. Thanks.
 
#9 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hi Scott. No, I've never read it. You are talking with a woman who has been googling beekeeping for all of 1 week - since our last 4H meeting. I'll order it in at the library, which may take some time. In the meanwhile, are you saying I should take this woman up on her offer? Or, are you saying DONT, but try to hunt down a swarm? I know nothing about bees, but I do live in a research forest - I don't want to screw with honeybee ecology in my area just for a 4H project.
 
#10 · (Edited by Moderator)
It sounds like she has good stock and it's not impolite to ask what the bee breed is, if known. She may say mix or mutt, which is fine if she has had good success keeping them. If she does say a specific breed, it might be worth asking if she purchases queens from out of the area.

Swarms are usually a genetic gamble, but probably not so much in your situation because you are so isolated, relatively speaking. You may not get many swarms from wild bees, but I am guessing that late may to June would be the peak swarm season for you. The benefit of a swarm is that they are ideal to start a Warre, because they are primed to make a lot of wax as part of the swarming behavior.

I'll not pester you with it after this, but I think you and your daughter might enjoy reading Seeley's book.
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9267.html
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
Scott - Phew! I got a little nervous there :) Yes, we will definitely get Seeley's book, and we have access to a publications database as well.

Andrew - We will be putting in electric fencing, with a solar panel and battery or two. We'll put chicken wire around the base and hang tin cans with peanut butter... hope for the best.

What about my specific questions regarding construction? Thanks for all the input!
 
#14 · (Edited by Moderator)
I note you said Warre sized hives. I do not keep Warre hives (though I have thought about it!) so take what I have to say as potentially uninformed. My understanding is that the whole Warre concept depends on having a bottom entrance. If you have a top entrance and holes in the bottom, I'm not sure what you'd call it, but you'll proably be having Warre turn in his grave!

If you want to do something with a top entrance consider 8 frame mediums (Langstroth type). Without doing the math I'd guess that two of those are going to roughly equal the capacity of a single Warre box. Plus there is lots of info on using upper entrances with that type of configuration.

I use entrance feeders solely for feeding water and believe can attract too much robbing to use as a regular feeder. You could use the feeder on top of the frames and surround it with empty box(es).

Good luck with your adventure - I'm glad to hear you have an electric fence in your plans.
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
BC is ASSUME. Had a client buy Kitsault so I got to briefly visit and it was just breath takingly beautiful. The problem you're going to have is the amount of rain and the depth of snow. A lot of folks that far north bring the hives in to the cellar for the winter. Its going to be tough moving a full hive by boat. I'd make the Warre lid with an extra big soffit (roof edge) to help keep the hive dry. I don't think you'll find any swarms, but if there are exterminators in the area, call them. They are called to remove swarms. They'd know if there are wild bees around and might be willing to call you when they are called.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
To Valerieanne,

I'm fairly new with raising bees in a Warre hive (got the bees last Spring). Still, I did some modifications to help my bees along. One is putting a top feeder and added an entrance hole on the side of that feeder. http://www.keepandshare.com/photo/455093/2013-mobeek-s-honeybees?fv=y&ifr= And instead of using the Warre roof, I made a flat roof with deep sides to protect the top entrance. So far, my bees are still alive but winter is not over yet either.

You might also want to go to www.warre.biobees.com to learn more about the Warre hive and some modifications tried through the years. I'm actually going to try adding circular entrance reducers for my next set of hives.

Good luck with the fun project.
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
I see some great feedback here, and we know a bit about your location, where you hope to get bees, as well as the likely equipment (either top bar or warre).

I'm familiar with top bar beekeeping, but have not yet propagated the the top bar that I have here, so FWIW. One of the biggest concerns about a horizontal hive such as a top bar is that bees tend to cluster and move vertically through the winter to consume honey stores, without breaking cluster (huddle). However, bees do create holes in the comb to move from comb to comb as a group called 'communication holes', they just don't always maintain these holes in ideal spots for moving frame to frame. Some beekeepers cut a small 1"-2" hole in the center of each frame to allow the cluster to move laterally, without breaking cluster. in colder, wetter climates I'm not sure top bar is ideal. It's also NOT a multi-part hive system (other than the frames) so you have to decide how large (how many frames) the top bar will need to be.... permanently.

Warre does sound like a good match, but the top entrance modification is worth serious consideration. I have a propagated Warre and is doing great, I simply made the mistake of getting the octagonal design. I highly suggest a square or rectangular so that you can more easily manage and inspect down the road.


Going forward, it will be of great interest to others if you can take some good notes (keep a diary).

Some of the basic observations you can document are:

• Observations about the bees you procure (general appearance of the bees). Are they light or dark, defensive or gentle, not overlooking your intuitive perception of the beekeeper, apiary and other bees and hives there (even if you have limited experience).

• Including a bit about the transport and install is also useful..., as soon as possible after you get the job done.

• Weather conditions are also extremely useful to document at key times such as install and subsequent visits to the colony or colonies.


IMO, beekeeping is an art more than a science because there are so many variables. It's nearly impossible to create and control conditions that give us 100% certainty about much beyond the very basics (hence the isolated island virtues). Anticipating future needs of your colony AND the weather conditions/timing to provide support/management is not rote.

So don't hesitate to ask many questions and then make the decisions that feel right to you.
 
#19 · (Edited by Moderator)
Addendum: Some other modification done on my Warre hive; I removed the quilt and left the top feeder in its place to act as condensation collector also. If you're going to feed with sugar syrup (I add Honeybee healthy as supplement to the syrup) place some kind of floating device to keep the bees from drowning. I used a waffle shelf liner. Just make sure the bees don't propilize it to the bottom of the feeder once the feeder is dry.

Other recommendations: since this is the very first hive you are planning to start, I think it would be safer to start it in your back yard. It would allow you to check on them more often in the beginning plus you can react and get help faster in case of emergencies like getting stung and having a severe allergic reaction. I understand that Warre hives are supposed to be lower maintenance but I ended up feeding my bees at least once every week to two weeks until they have built combs in 3 boxes. I got this recommendation from thewarrestore.com and a smart beekeeper in Biobees.com. But that's just a suggestion. There are so much to consider but it is better to be prepared before any problems come.

http://m.thewarrestore.com/site/mob...sig_time=1362074896480&fb_sig_network=fw#2330
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
Wow - great input, thank you! The biobees warre modification page was a fantastic resource, "Bubbles". No way I can put a hive in the backyard though. Bears are everywhere, and it would be unethical/dangerous to bait them in this way. I figure, if they want to take a swim out to the island and get zapped - at least there is no association with human activities on this side. We will also get insurance and a couple of epi-pens, as we are so far from medical care. Just in case.

The plan is to pick up bees from a beekeeper 1.5 hrs out, after ice-out. That way we don't have to push through rotten ice. That will be around May 1. We'll have to go out twice daily to check/feed at first, then slowly wean the girls until most checks are from the porch with binoculars.

I'm lost on the hive design. The more I read, the worse it gets. A top entrance is absolutely critical - so much snow! Small, light, able to harvest small amounts of honey at a time are also critical. Daughter wants a window. Foundationless, yes. Frames - negotiable. Maintenance, relatively low-key. I got an email from someone recommending all 8-frame shallows - just MORE of them. I'm giving us one month to examine all the options, two weeks to build, get them out and leveled just before ice-out, move in the girls just after ice-out, fence it all in.

Daughter is already making a list of all the people she wants to mail honey-straws to. THAT is where this whole thing started - an ag. fair and Honey Straws.
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
Your a good parent and it sounds like a wonderful adventure!

I can't offer much advice but I do think frames are a good idea. You want a hive that is easy to look through without working the bees up. It's easy to pull frames and share all the things in a hive without dealing with angry bees.

Maybe you could also plan for a storage container of sorts so you can keep some of the basics out there?

I would love to see some photos
 
#23 · (Edited by Moderator)
Let me give you a little advice from my limited warre experience. Don't expect magical things from the whole leave the bees alone and everything will go perfectly. False floor effect is real. Swarming and queenless situations are real. Varroa are real. Dead colonies are real. Starvation is real. Without your intervention your bees can succumb to these conditions and perish.

So what I have done to combat false floor effect is to take a partially drawn outer comb and put it in a nadired box. This will also help reduce swarming if you stay on top of things. I also super (I know shame shame). You will need seed combs in the supered box, which is essentially a comb or two placed in the supered box. You can also accomplish this by removing an outer comb and placing it above.

Varroa will have to be monitored and treated when needed with whatever method you prefer.

Feed if necessary. Do not listen to all the natural hububaloo. Feed if necessary. Leave their honey that they need, but feed them if they need it.

Just don't ignore them. I bought into the let them be garbage and just ran into troubles. Hope that helps!

One more thing to consider...Lang 8 frame mediums can get you close to a warre with less headaches and the ability to purchase equipment from suppliers. I will continue to run warres, but I am now using mostly foundationless 8 frame langs.
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
Wow
Very interesting project and nice discussion! As usual - beesource is offering so many suggestions, difficult to choose. There is one more:
- since it is a project for 9-year old, the goal must be (if possible) to succeed in short period of time with limited resources, which IS difficult, so everything should be simple.
- as a beginner beekeeper, I strongly suggest two beehives. Success with one hive is very difficult.
- I strongly suggest to keep bees near the house - search Internet and beesource - people made beautiful platforms to protect bees from the bears etc. It automatically solve bees-presence issue - from platform, they will fly high enough not to bother anybody around the house. Platform, may also function as an adventurous "tree-house" and fun to build. I am very aware of nature, but I feel small platform would not interfere so much with wildness. Crossing the waters to inspect bees sounded fun, but, I am often run a few times in my garage (truck, for others) for something bees needed right now... kayaking back and forth sounded good exercise.
- since you are beginner and limited in resources, beehive in my opinion, should be classical Lang with frames. Yes, I personally is a proponent of "natural beekeeping" and often have arguments with others. I love top bars, foundationless, my hive is a marriage of Lang and Warre... But, look - your agenda is to make sure that your daughter observed success. It is just easier to follow "classical" approach and leave top bars, foundationless etc for later - when bees established, next year. Also - much more support may be found for classical Lang. Warre is great, but as many stated already, I do not think that Ware-approach is designed for top entrance. Also, I was under impression that Warre's boxes are heavy. Langs boxes are heavy too, but frames may be removed and transported separately. The advantage of the frame - it would protect the honeycomb.

Good luck with your project, keep us posted and pictures, pictures!!!!
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
Thank you for all the encouragement, the details are a bit overwhelming. I'm trying to crash course on this, so I can guide my daughter in her choices. Ultimately, it's her show. Great practical advice to keep a tool/supply tote out there! Made me think that we'll get a locking float tote to transport harvest (just in case we leave in haste and dump the kayaks :)) Orange flagging on the tools, another good one.

Dan, I hear you too. She's gonna get stung. She's gonna get frustrated. She's gonna cry. The colony could die off a few weeks in. Bears may beat us to the harvest by a mere day. All good lessons to this mom's mind. We will feed when necessary, as we're the ones stranding the poor girls out there. No chems though. We'll do all we can, but, they might just get sick and die. Lessons to be learned there as well.

The only way I'll call it a failure is if she gives up. Otherwise, it's better than a barbie dreamhouse! Plan for success. Try again, fail again, fail better. I can promise you this - they will not be ignored! This kid kisses her houseplants and keeps houseflies in teacup hospice care. No worries on the neglect side, I assure you.
 
#54 · (Edited by Moderator)
We will feed when necessary, as we're the ones stranding the poor girls out there. No chems though. We'll do all we can, but, they might just get sick and die. Lessons to be learned there as well.
(Hmmm, I hope that you don't apply this same policy to your children -- some people who perhaps missed out on polio, etc., seem to think that child vaccinations are now a bad thing.)

I just wanted to add that there is more than one way to treat a hive for varroa (should it be necessary). Here in Germany beekeepers largely use formic and oxalic acid treatments. Both of these organic acids are naturally found in honey in small amounts. As with any "chemical" (including table salt and baking soda) that one handles, some minimal precautions are necessary.

Good luck (the bears still concern me the most),

-K
 
#27 · (Edited by Moderator)
Agreed. You can still borrow techniques or modifications from other hive styles as you see fit, such as foundationless frames. Chances are that the beekeeper you get your bees from uses langstroth and probably has reasons for doing so that she will share with you.

From my experience, new beekeepers that have new equipment and install a package (shake off) or swarm don't see many pest problems in their first year, so you a little time to learn before you would need to make a decision about treating.
 
#30 · (Edited by Moderator)
We are going with the 8 frame Lang. Medium depth, and possibly shallow later on. As everyone suggested, this meets most of our needs, and keeps it simple for the beginner. We are going to have a top-entrance, and no foundations. A few more questions at this point:

1. We are thinking of doing both top bars and cutting down frames to half-frames. Just for curiosity's sake, to see what they prefer. Is there any problem alternating the two?

2. We have 1x6 and 2x6 Douglas fir on hand. This is close to the Lang depth of 6 5/8". Is "close" good enough, if you have top bars or half-frames? I know that the inside width and length must be exact to the standard.

3. Is there any advantage to using the thicker 2 inch over the 1 inch? That would justify the added weight?

4. Queen excluder - both arguments are convincing. Does leaving it off the first year increase the colony's chances for success? Then, we can revisit it later?

We are having fun examining skyscraper beehives! You thought transporting bees via kayak was different? Daughter suggested a zipline for one of these hive stands. Sometimes it is easy saying no. We do have a large, high, rusty metal platform where a mill was standing back in the 50's. It's far back in the woods, and I've always admonished "stay away!" because the ladder is covered in large, sharp paint (probably lead) chips. I'm gonna take another look :)

5. What about wind and winter protection for these "high" hives? Do they get moved down for the winter months?
 
#31 · (Edited by Moderator)
Your 1x6' and 2x6" lumber is actually 5 1/2" wide. That is smaller than the height of a "Shallow" super, which is 5 11/16". I would suggest acquiring appropriate lumber to make a standard size medium. If you were determined to use what you have on hand, you could fabricate/glue an extension to the 6" boards such that you can make a 6 5/8" standard medium super.

I don't see any advantage for ever using 2x lumber, especially here where weight is a primary consideration. Some beeks use foamboard insulation in winter months. If you chose to doe this, it could be just tied or strapped around the box stack rather than permanently attached.

Top bars only I understand. But I don't see what you gain from the extra effort of cutting down frames to be half frames?

Most arguments in favor of an excluder revolves around keeping brood out of honey supers intended for harvest. Perhaps you should not expect to get a significant harvest the first year. An excluder is not likely to be of value the first year, IMHO.

"Cinnabar" as a placename in BC is somewhat obscure. I saw one possibility on Vancouver Island, and another in the University of Northern BC Research Centre near Fort St James. Where are you located ... I imagine the climate at those two locations is markedly different.
 
#32 · (Edited by Moderator)
Graham, we are at Canadian Zone 3 (there are differences in American vs. Canadian hardiness zones) , we are closer to a Canadian Zone 2, due to elevation. NOT Vancouver Island :)

Cutting down the frames is simply for curiosity's sake.

I will re-measure our lumber. It was milled locally, so I didn't even think about it! We also have 1x8 and 2x8... I'll measure it all, see if it is workable. We could rip down the 8 inch, maybe.
 
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