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Thread: Neonic facts

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Anyway the amount of nicotine when you smoke your bees will depend on the amount of nicotine in the material you are burning. Nicotine will survive being burned. it will survive passing through a plant is it grows. it will remain in the nectar and it will survive the process of being made into honey. It will also remain in your bee.
    I've been hearing about tobbacco as smoker fuel all my life, but never tried it. However, last year, acquired some tobbacco seeds which I planted, and ended up with 96 tobbacco plants. Harvested the leaves, and now I roll a couple into each sack roll that goes into the smoker.

    A rather pungent smoke, but does burn well the smoker will always put out o good cloud of smoke when I want it. Had been told you can see varroa mites drop off the bees if you use tobbacco so been looking out for that, but no luck.

    No ill effects of the bees though. Are neonicitiniods really nicotine? Or something like it, or what?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    How I miss using nicotine bombs in the gh too... I think Jerry Brown was the guys name, whoever that gardner on public tv was, he was always making concoctions out of household stuff to treat your plants. He would make a tea from chewing tobaco to add into his stuff to kill insects.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    No ill effects of the bees though. Are neonicitiniods really nicotine? Or something like it, or what?
    Aw come on haven't you learned anything from all the "discussion" on here? And yes they are a form of nicotine. I wouldn't even be surprised if there are some on the Forum who grow it, consume it, and then suspect it may be killing their bees. Just because they can't be detected dosent mean they aren't there and just because your bees are looking good dosent mean they shouldn't be looking even better. If you have ever lost a hive or ever had a queen that didn't last as long as you would like then that should be all the proof you need that neonicitinoids are the culprit hiding there below LOD laying waste to all your diligent beekeeping.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Are neonicitiniods really nicotine? Or something like it, or what?
    They have a similar molecular structure ...


    but are not the same. Otherwise neonicotinoids would have been available decades earlier. This study examines the similar effects of nicotine and neonicitiniods on mammals.

    Acetamiprid (ACE) and imidacloprid (IMI) belong to a new, widely used class of pesticide, the neonicotinoids. With similar chemical structures to nicotine, neonicotinoids also share agonist activity at nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChRs). Although their toxicities against insects are well established, their precise effects on mammalian nAChRs remain to be elucidated. Because of the importance of nAChRs for mammalian brain function, especially brain development, detailed investigation of the neonicotinoids is needed to protect the health of human children. We aimed to determine the effects of neonicotinoids on the nAChRs of developing mammalian neurons and compare their effects with nicotine, a neurotoxin of brain development.
    ......

    Conclusions
    This study is the first to show that ACE, IMI, and nicotine exert similar excitatory effects on mammalian nAChRs at concentrations greater than 1 M. Therefore, the neonicotinoids may adversely affect human health, especially the developing brain.

    Full document here:
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0032432



    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    I believe those were all rat studies. Often don't translate to humans, although RR may qualify.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    They have a similar molecular structure ... -Radar Sidetrack
    Exactly.

    In an "evolutionary arms race," plants that are damaged by insects evolve by relying on adaptations to reduce the damage done by herbivores. Some plants grow extra hairs, some produce thorns or spines, some have tough coverings, some make chemicals that make them unpalatable or even toxic. The insects adapt to those, and the plants adapt again. And so on. We end up with plants that produce some nasty methods to avoid being eaten by insects (and other creatures) and insects that can eat some nasty stuff.

    Tobacco plants are an example of a plant that produced a toxin to reduce herbivory by insects. That toxin is nicotine. Nicotine is sold in a purified form for use as an insecticide, too.

    Nicotine is harmful to bees, as well.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    .
    Hey thanks for that Radar Sidetrack, good to see some actual chemistry on this.


    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Aw come on haven't you learned anything from all the "discussion" on here?
    About neonics being the cause of everything? well, with the more balanced opinions that have been presented I'm even less convinced we need to ban neonics than I was before. But still open to further education, either way.

    I think i've actually learned more, about the Beesource membership. Which on the neonics issue, makes up a bell curve. The overwhelming majority are in the middle with an open minded and balanced view on the issue. As we move towards the two opposing edges of the bell curve attitudes get a bit more narrow, till we end up with a small number of members with pretty extreme views, right down to just the most extreme two or three, at each end, the most worrysome ones at the end believing that neonicitiniods are behind every problem that exists, and in fact thet we should even discontinue beekeeping if ever affected by some symptom.

    Overall though the wisdom of the whole group is excellent and discussion robust.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Overall though the wisdom of the whole group is excellent and discussion robust.
    yep, nice post ot.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    I believe those were all rat studies. Often don't translate to humans, although RR may qualify.
    Um, I'm not them, but I do work in the bio-medical science field.

    All mammals have (with very minor differences) the same nicotinic receptor systems, so if it affects rats you can be sure it affects humans (we get addicted to nicotine after all). The use of rats for this study was a costs and ethics decision, rats cost less and have a low ethics approval requirement than the use of human subjects.....

    So to put this another way, would you be happy if we laced our baby food with nicotine? I know this is a VERY polarized and extreme example, but the premise holds, we don't allow the harm of our infants so why do we set up our bees to HAVE to <potentially, the jury is still out> harm theirs?

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    >we don't allow the harm of our infants so why do we set up our bees to HAVE to <potentially, the jury is still out> harm theirs?

    could it be for the very same reason that some form or another of pesticide has been utilized for a very long time now?

    a. so farmers can make a living
    b. so the chemcial companies make a profit
    c. so we can all have food to eat
    d. all of the above
    e. none of the above

    (and there's always the possibility of a vast underground conspiricy to wipe honeybees of the face of the planet)
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    >we don't allow the harm of our infants so why do we set up our bees to HAVE to <potentially, the jury is still out> harm theirs?

    could it be for the very same reason that some form or another of pesticide has been utilized for a very long time now?

    a. so farmers can make a living
    b. so the chemcial companies make a profit
    c. so we can all have food to eat
    d. all of the above
    e. none of the above

    (and there's always the possibility of a vast underground conspiricy to wipe honeybees of the face of the planet)
    Remind me again why there are withholding periods for all crops grown that have chemical applications as part of their cultivation?

    Is it because we know they are not good for us and can cause harm to the consumer or is it just because the EPA felt like it? If we are will to impose these restriction of time between application and sale for our protection why don't the animal underpinning ~33%of the US agri sector profits also get the same respect?

    Is it because suddenly we would need to address the fact that systemic insecticides don't just stay where we want them but end up permeating the entire plant and it's immediate environment? I'm not saying chemicals have no place in agriculture, I'm just asking why do we afford greater protection to ourselves, and then wonder why something is having an undesired effect on a non-target (aka "an off target" effect in the pharmaceutical world which gets drugs pulled all the time) species?

    BTW to claim that neonics have no impact on bees is just plain silly, it has a lethal dose in bees so ergo it has an effect, even if as at this time the exact effect of a sub-lethal dose is poorly known or unknown.

    One final VERY OT note, when Chinese toy makers got a trace of lead, at levels WAY below the human lethal dose, into the paint used in toys imported to the USA, what did the US do? It banned all the toys and slapped punitive restrictions on those makers. The trace of lead probably got added to meet points A, B, and C of the above.....

    We seem to be quite ready to ban things when it suits us, DDT a very safe (to humans) chemical, because it was thinning the shells of raptors and other apex predator birds (all arguably of no or little economic value), but in the case of bees, which as stated, under pin ~33% of the food we eat, we aren't willing to consider it?

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    DDT got banned because it is almost indestructable. Or to be correct, it is destructable, but has a heckuva long half life. Once it got into the ocean food chain and started killing birds on the other side of the planet from where it was used, we quite rightly decided we could just not keep putting more and more of it into the planet.

    You are correct about the lead in Chinese toys being below lethal dose. But it was considered high enough dose to cause potential brain damage in infants if ingested, that's one of the things lead does. The US quite rightly did not want the entire future population dumbed down.

    Again you are correct that neonics kill bees. If they didn't kill anything we wouldn't be using them to kill bugs, right?

    Witholding periods for poisons used in crops? To get the dose we get low enough so it supposedly won't hurt us. Applies to pretty much all chemicals used on crops. We may not like that, but it's the world we live in. People still have the option to pay more and buy organic.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    We may not like that, but it's the world we live in. People still have the option

    the whole issue come down to that point
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    so you're ok with low doses of a neurotoxin like neonics (they do have an impact on mammals even if it's not as big as that in insects), but not with equally low doses of also neuroactive lead? I'm confused.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    the whole issue come down to that point
    Yes, but the bees DON'T have that option, they don't/can't know what has been poisoned and what hasn't.......

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    I think we all agree on that.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    yep that we can

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    yup, would be nice to beekeep without having to talk about these chemical issues, in hive and out of hive
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Are neonicitiniods really nicotine? Or something like it, or what?
    Neonicotinoids are a class of neuro-active insecticides chemically related to nicotine.

    That is what the wiki says. They are made from nicotine. It is something that tobacco growers are thinking may bring back tobacco. It hasn't yet and I am not so sure I think it will. Buyers simply will not pay enough to make tobacco growing pay. not even cigarette manufacturers. Figure that one out. what a farmer gets for growing tobacco is not even a penny on the dollar for what it is eventually sold for. and uncle Sam gets nearly every cent of it. If you think it is no big deal. wait until they do the same thing because you want to eat food they think you shouldn't.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    oh boy, better make that garden a bit bigger
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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