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Thread: Neonic facts

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    You're saying that if everyone in New York City (or urban location of your choosing) sunk their own wells for water....that they'd be healthier?
    Good God no. I am saying there are too many people living close together that they are contaminated by their own waste. Same problem with slaughter houses. They use antibiotics because the animals are wallowing in there own poop. Too close together. Chlorine is use to burn up organic matter in the water supply, bacteria and such. If your drinking water is not contained in 5 miles of underground pipes which may or may not be breached you don't need chlorine.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Well, you are confused... ....
    Yes Graham
    and I am really apologize for my "lecture" and not appropriate personal attack on you. I was not aware that chlorine-gas is still in use in US. If chlorine-gas is in use, your argument is very good - if they could use military combatant gas in drinking water, than of coarse they could use neonics on bees.... it is fair argument, you won this battle. Again, my sincere apology for not-nice post to everyone, who was affected. Sergey
    Last edited by cerezha; 02-27-2013 at 08:07 PM. Reason: editing
    Серёжа, Sergey

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by praxis178 View Post
    Table salt is NaCl *not* NaCl2 which would be electrically unstable and so unable to exist...
    Yes, many thanks for correction. That post was really bad. I apologize for that. Also, apparently, all my "schema" did not work because chlorine gas is used in drinking water these days in US. Shame on me - I was so ignorant and did not check... Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    I think it's suspicious in the extreme that neonics came on to the market in 2003 and CCD got its recognition in 2006. -praxis178
    No, that's not right. Neonicotinoids were created in the late 70s or early 80s, and first entered the market in about 1990. Imidacloprid specifically entered the market in 1992. Its use increased rapidly. The amount used in the US peaked in 2003, dropped back each year until 2009, and started increasing again in 2010.

    The amount used in 2006 was very similar to the amount used in 2000.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    don't worry about it sergery. spirited discussion and debate are what makes this forum great.

    my point of view has been changed from time to time thanks to the willingness of those here that are willing to share theirs.

    the only thing that i find difficult to accept is when someone takes a position but cannot offer a reasonable underlying rationale for it.

    and when competing rationales are offered, and at the end of the day, we all get to decide for ourselves what our personal take is.

    welcome to america!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    dan, i'm not aware of anyone who has exempted neonics as a possible factor, are you?

    being guilty and being on the list of possible suspects are two different things, no?
    True, But that justify use until otherwise proven a problem? Seems like the worst possible case course of action. or could be. And yes I admit even for me it is only a "Could Be". So do we cause companies with millions invested to suffer loss. do we cause beekeepers to suffer billions in losses?

    I really think that is what is being discussed here. various people have there various views and each chooses how to present that view. that is fine.

    The opinion that catches my attention is the one that says. "I want proof they are a problem" Yet that very same person sees no need for proof they are safe. that is inconsistent. This inconsistency catches my attention. it raises a bit of a red flag. It does not make since to me and I will admit I still have not made since of it. It just does not fit.

    The same requirement they claim to have for showing that pesticides do harm bees they have a total lack of requirement for them to be shown safe. So I know one thing they are not concerned with proof of any kind. they just say they are. Now so that others do not think such a person is a total ogar. I will say this could happen simply because someone really wants to believe there is now a safe alternative. they may genuinely see that thing are better now than they where. It could be a primidonna type opinion that things will be better. It comes from the same genuine concern for the honey bee as every other opinion. it is just formed from different choices as to what to believe or not. I believe actions. I believe results. Results indicate better than anything else what can be expected next. The factual events is Neonics have only been evaluated by obviously unreliable sources. and by unreliable tests. Why the need for unreliable if in fact they are safe? I don't think all these shady things happened by accident and I don't think they happened without reasons. They in fact acted in this way. they in fact made these choices. and there is in fact reason for those decisions. and I don't think bad decisions are made to achieve good results. They made shady choices because they are in fact trying to pull a fast one. and that is all the proof I need. All that is left to do is dig in and find out what they are really up to. and no way it will be good.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    guilty until proven innocent . . .
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    The factual events is Neonics have only been evaluated by obviously unreliable sources. and by unreliable tests.
    This is where we differ - there have been, IMO, reliable tests from very reliable sources that show that neonics are so much better than the organophosphates, both for humans and for bees.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    The factual events is Neonics have only been evaluated by obviously unreliable sources. and by unreliable tests. -Daniel Y
    I'm not sure what you believe to be "reliable" versus "unreliable." Neonicotinoids certainly do pose threats to bees, as well as almost every other insect. The problem to me comes from the emphatic assertions that "neonicotinoids cause CCD." I see no cause-and-effect link. They almost certainly contribute to problems, maybe even contribute to CCD, but they do not seem to be the single cause.

    Maybe you term me as "unreliable." Not much I can do about that if you do. A few years ago, I was involved in some pesticide research as part of a job I had. I worked with any number of insecticides, mostly to determine efficacies, rates, and even assess some new products that were not (and some still are not) on the market. The position was a government position, was not funded by chemical companies, and some of the research demonstrated that products did not always work as intended. Not only that, some of the insecticides were not effective against the target insects as they were labeled for application.

    Back in 2007, as part of a post in a thread here on Beesource, I posted this:

    Just to give some more specific information, some of the test plots where different insecticides are compared are less than one mile from one of my bee yards. I have helped apply pesticides to those plots for the last two years, usually spraying some of bees in the process. Those bees have been sprayed with almost every form of neonicotinoid on the market, most forms of pyrethroids available, organophosphates, carbamates, and so on. While I have witnessed some pesticide poisoning among those bees from time to time, I have not lost any other those hives to pesticide poisoning or to CCD. Nothing statistical about those observations, but they do pretty well eliminate the simple "cause-and-effect" idea about neonicotinoids and CCD. Not only were those bees exposed to low doses of neonicotinoids, they were exposed to high doses (foliar applications, made while the bees were working), and for two consecutive years. -Kieck
    The thread can be found here, if anyone is interested: http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...=neonicotinoid

    Those fields included test plots treated with every neonicotinoid on the market as seed treatments and as foliar treatments, as well as a wide range of classes of insecticides. It included insecticides that have yet to reach the market and maybe never will. I left that job in 2009.

    As of yet, I have not seen first-hand anything that could realistically be considered CCD. I consider myself fortunate, but I am also convinced by this that it is not a simple cause-and-effect of neonicotinoids (or other pesticides). If it was, it should not have failed to appear in those hives. Those were the only managed hives within four miles of the test plots, and almost certainly the source of the bees that I observed in those plots while spraying.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    I've posted this before, but it really summarizes what I think causes most problems with our bees. Do insecticides play a part, I believe so. But also fungicides, miticides, etc. But virus issues, vectored by varroa are the real culprit. IMO, keep varroa under control and the other issues are manageable.

    PLoS One. 2012;7(8):e43562. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0043562. Epub 2012 Aug 21.
    Pathogen webs in collapsing honey bee colonies.
    Cornman RS, Tarpy DR, Chen Y, Jeffreys L, Lopez D, Pettis JS, vanEngelsdorp D, Evans JD.
    Source

    Bee Research Laboratory, Agricultural Research Service, United States Department of Agriculture, Beltsville, Maryland, United States of America.
    Abstract

    Recent losses in honey bee colonies are unusual in their severity, geographical distribution, and, in some cases, failure to present recognized characteristics of known disease. Domesticated honey bees face numerous pests and pathogens, tempting hypotheses that colony collapses arise from exposure to new or resurgent pathogens. Here we explore the incidence and abundance of currently known honey bee pathogens in colonies suffering from Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), otherwise weak colonies, and strong colonies from across the United States. Although pathogen identities differed between the eastern and western United States, there was a greater incidence and abundance of pathogens in CCD colonies. Pathogen loads were highly covariant in CCD but not control hives, suggesting that CCD colonies rapidly become susceptible to a diverse set of pathogens, or that co-infections can act synergistically to produce the rapid depletion of workers that characterizes the disorder. We also tested workers from a CCD-free apiary to confirm that significant positive correlations among pathogen loads can develop at the level of individual bees and not merely as a secondary effect of CCD. This observation and other recent data highlight pathogen interactions as important components of bee disease. Finally, we used deep RNA sequencing to further characterize microbial diversity in CCD and non-CCD hives. We identified novel strains of the recently described Lake Sinai viruses (LSV) and found evidence of a shift in gut bacterial composition that may be a biomarker of CCD. The results are discussed with respect to host-parasite interactions and other environmental stressors of honey bees.

    PMID:
    22927991
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    PMCID:
    PMC3424165

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22927991

    full paper free at the above link.
    Last edited by camero7; 02-28-2013 at 10:12 AM. Reason: added info

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    I agree with you on that one Camero. Even if my goal was to develop treatment free stock, once I get there, I'm going to work in a Fall mite treatment to start spring as clean as possible as needed. Harboring pests/vectors with your resistant/tolerant lines is just askiing for them to break it and I think a few people have experienced similar situations last year/this year where they were comfortable with seeing mites and some DWV with no issues in the past, now they've lost a good percentage of their hives and are seriously rethinking that strategy of just letting it go. Other factors could be in play though, but I think controlling your vectors is key, most resistances/tolerance have a threshold and bees are too dynamic to rely on any one strategy IMO.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    good stuff, thanks ya'll.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    ...welcome to america!
    Thank you!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Thank you!
    you are very welcome my russian friend. i appreciate your contributions to the forum.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Do you feel better if you shut up different opinion(s)? You are very naive if think that you are in power to change somebody. People just drift away from this source. As a result, you guys could enjoy yourself... references to the absence of the "facts" is just pathetic and sad. If somebody is not capable to learn something new outside of the box, than, yes, for this blind mind - there are no "facts"! Why, because, facts are outside of the box. My apology, nothing personal.
    "absence of "facts" is pathetic and sad". That is a sad comentary. Please look up conjecture in the dictionary. The primary reason for this thread was that someone presented the subject as being "factual". AND IT WAS NOT! Amen.

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Again, my sincere apology for not-nice post to everyone, who was affected. Sergey
    oldforte, i think sergey realized it was a bad post and apologized. i say we forgive him, amen?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    I will correct my comment and remove the "Only" Since it is impossible for me to know every study made of these pesticides. I should have said the only studies I know of where done by unreliable sources. mainly allowing Bayer to test their own products.

    I also do not agree there is enough evidence to say these pesticides are the sole cause of anything.

    Consider this though. Neonicotinoids is just a fancy pants way of saying Nicotine. Since when is that considered harmless?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    How much nicotine is present when we smoke our bees?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Okay, that last one is an example of just how far off conjuncture can get. Nicotine is a chemical present in the tobacco. tobacco actually produces it. This does not mean that everything that smokes has nicotine in it. The truth is it is not the nicotine in tobacco that is bad. it is all the other garbage they put in it to make commercial cigarettes. but that is another very long discussion.

    Anyway the amount of nicotine when you smoke your bees will depend on the amount of nicotine in the material you are burning. Nicotine will survive being burned. it will survive passing through a plant is it grows. it will remain in the nectar and it will survive the process of being made into honey. It will also remain in your bee. The reason you cannot detect it is because you cannot separate it from what it is bonded to in order to detect it. One way to come up with clean tests is to test in a way that cannot possible show any result but negative. You know that little question sheet they give you at the end of a training. that one that you cannot possibly fail. they call that a test also.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    I will correct my comment and remove the "Only" Since it is impossible for me to know every study made of these pesticides. I should have said the only studies I know of where done by unreliable sources. mainly allowing Bayer to test their own products.
    The study I posted above was not done by Bayer, maybe you should read it.

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