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Thread: Neonic facts

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    You have emotions but no facts.
    There is a recent thread started by somebody asking why his hive died. Almost no information was given other than that his bees were dead.

    On this basis, the FACTS, as given in one of the following posts, were that his bees had been killed by neonics. And as they had been killed by neonics, there was no point having bees there again.

    It occured to me that if everybody who had a deadout as described, took this advise, there would be very few bees in America.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    My approach is that if there is ANY evidence that chemical is harmful (to anything!). That chemical needs to be removed from use for clarification. Once proven to be harmless, it may be returned in the business.
    Many municipal water systems use chlorine to kill live organisms in the water that is distributed to homes and businesses. Chlorine is a deadly chemical. So, under your proposal, chlorine should not be allowed in water treatment plants. Of course, the reality is that without chlorine, or some other potential harmful equivalent, many people would get sick and may die from tainted water.

    Even plain old table salt is a "chemical is harmful (to anything!)". If you eat a cup of salt a day, or drink ocean water exclusively, you will soon die! Are you going to ban salt?
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    You know who has helped me understand the neonic issue? Randy Oliver. He actually goes through all these studdies and red flags the agenda pushers. He knows the process, he understands a properly prepared study on a subject. He will go through a study related to honeybee health and bring it to a level beekeepers like me can understand.

    I think he is the reason why beekeepers on this forum push back at agenda pushers now
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Here is his website, if anyone is interested

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

    cerezha, you should read some of what he is saying. Dont take this invite to his page as an attack on your philosophy, your entitled to your opinion
    just read a bit about what Randy has to say
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Hey Barry,

    Why don't you create a forum dedicated to pesticide/CCD for these discussions. Perhaps you could use the Diseases and Pests if you'd rather not start a new one. When posts appear in the main forums (Bee Forum or 101) they can be moved to the appropriate place. I think it would be very beneficial to move this out of the main posting areas. There's very little new information coming in and the rehash with subsequent fighting is really distracting to the mission.
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Many municipal water systems use chlorine to kill live organisms in the water that is distributed to homes and businesses. Chlorine is a deadly chemical. So, under your proposal, chlorine should not be allowed in water treatment plants. Of course, the reality is that without chlorine, or some other potential harmful equivalent, many people would get sick and may die from tainted water.
    Chlorine is a deadly chemical. Fluoride is another deadly chemical. Chlorine is used because of a maze of pipes traveling underground along a city with another maze of pipes carrying poop. Many people have wells that are not chlorinated and these people are probably more healthy than those drinking chlorinated water. Wiled animals don't drink chlorinated water for the most part so the bottom line is chlorine is a necessary evil but a evil non the less. A certain percentage of people are getting sick from chlorinated water but it is a small percentage and we can always treat them with more deadly chemicals to save a few of them. Tough luck for the rest. That is pretty much the attitude right now with neonic's.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    You know who has helped me understand the neonic issue? Randy Oliver. He actually goes through all these studdies and red flags the agenda pushers. He knows the process, he understands a properly prepared study on a subject. He will go through a study related to honeybee health and bring it to a level beekeepers like me can understand.

    I think he is the reason why beekeepers on this forum push back at agenda pushers now
    That's sure a factor Ian I "devour" everything Randy writes, but my opinion on this issue is what I see and what I experience in my beekeeping operation. The area we run bees in has been overrun with neonic treated row crops in recent years like most everywhere else. CCD? I've never seen it so I guess I really don't know what it is. My experience is much like Mike Palmer describes, I just don't see a problem. Overall our bees are better than they were 10 years ago and we operate a lot of hives over a pretty large area. Control your varroa, keep young well bred queens in your hives and either get bees on some forage or supplement them as needed and stop listening to all the hand wringing by folks that have little to no beekeeping experience or those that have a political agenda. My only agenda is the health and well being of my bees and if I sense a problem you will most definitely be hearing from me. In the meantime I have to figure out what to do with all these bees in my hives.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by astrobee View Post
    create a forum dedicated to pesticide/ccd for these discussions.
    like

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    You know who has helped me understand the neonic issue? Randy Oliver. He actually goes through all these studdies and red flags the agenda pushers. He knows the process, he understands a properly prepared study on a subject. He will go through a study related to honeybee health and bring it to a level beekeepers like me can understand.

    I think he is the reason why beekeepers on this forum push back at agenda pushers now
    I agree, but he has become one of the main targets of the anti neonicotinoid campaigners as he tries to take a balanced view of the risks and rewards associated with the stuff. The slurs against people like Randy Oliver and Jerry Bromenshenk are non stop all over the internet on the various campaigning websites.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Many people have wells that are not chlorinated and these people are probably more healthy than those drinking chlorinated water.
    You're saying that if everyone in New York City (or urban location of your choosing) sunk their own wells for water....that they'd be healthier?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    I agree, but he has become one of the main targets of the anti neonicotinoid campaigners as he tries to take a balanced view of the risks and rewards associated with the stuff. The slurs against people like Randy Oliver and Jerry Bromenshenk are non stop all over the internet on the various campaigning websites.
    Let them, the proof is in the pudding, Randys popularity comes from his balanced perspective on the issues at hand. He helps us identify those agneda pushers.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Sevaral great comments on this thread...... from the fact that chemicals like chlorine , and even Iodine... in sub lethal doses there great, but to much and its bad... its about Balance. Neonics are probably not good for bees, no one will dispute that not even the bi companys, but I don't belive they CAUSE CCD as I have been in the middle of them since they started.

    What is missing from this discussion on the side of the naysayers, is the value of these chems and GMO...... These things change the way we feed the world. yields today are higher than they have ever been. Despite crackpot comments to the contrary, we yield more per acre than ever before. and the numbers continue to rise. This is a result if the things we want to change or eliminate. so unless your prepared to reduce the population of the world, and pay higher food prices in order to save your beehives you need to step back.

    Rat poison is bad for you, if the kids get it its real bad. but put behind the refrigerator, its kinda handy........

    Its about balance and common sense. The increase in yields for an entire area/world. is offset by some losses in bees? might be a fair trade. as for my bees inthe middle of the chem soup, my losses are normal, and honey production is just as good as ever.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Many people have wells that are not chlorinated and these people are probably more healthy than those drinking chlorinated water.
    Most properties that do not have municipal water, and use wells for domestic water also have no municipal sewer system. That means they use individual septic systems. While a properly installed, maintained septic system is "safe", a septic system certainly can fail over time. And a failing septic system can contaminate well water, either yours, or your neighbors. The problem is compounded the closer each neighboring property is.

    There are part of this county that rely on individual wells as water lines are not everywhere. Those well-dependent properties often have a very difficult time in years of low rainfall. The idea that individual domestic wells could replace municipal water systems, and improve the average resident's health is nonsense.
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Here is his website, if anyone is interested

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

    cerezha, you should read some of what he is saying. Dont take this invite to his page as an attack on your philosophy, your entitled to your opinion
    just read a bit about what Randy has to say
    ian, thank you so much for posting this, i intended to but haven't had the chance. i have a research background and can assure everyone that randy's review, analysis, and critique of all of the information available on this subject is absolutely first class and trustworthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    I agree, but he has become one of the main targets of the anti neonicotinoid campaigners as he tries to take a balanced view of the risks and rewards associated with the stuff. The slurs against people like Randy Oliver and Jerry Bromenshenk are non stop all over the internet on the various campaigning websites.
    good point jonathan, and why are we not surprised by that? i would join ian and encourage anyone interested in this subject and and wants to develop an understanding of what is known and what is not known to spend some time reading randy's articles.

    those of you who were critical of me for adding stromnessbees and borderbeeman to my 'ignore list' may be less critical after doing so.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    squarepeg, you have a research background?

    sure dont push that fact around here to get your point across, do you,.lol
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Rat poison is bad for you, if the kids get it its real bad. but put behind the refrigerator, its kinda handy........
    It is actually good for you if you have a heart condition and need anticoagulant. My 80 year old mother is on her 3rd pacemaker and has been on warfarin for over 30 years.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    squarepeg, you have a research background?

    sure dont push that fact around here to get your point across, do you,.lol
    i try not to ian, and it's in neurophysiology and not entomotology.

    just a beginner when it comes to beekeeping......
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Good post Charlie. I think the main issue at hand is getting meaningful studies done, studies that don't use highly customized statistical designs to get the results they want to see. Also, instead of fighting with the pesticide companies the beekeeping industry needs to get involved and work with them when testing new products and ensure meaningful studies are done so everyone can walk away happy.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity
    Heres a really disturbing report to mull over. Imagine what continuous exposure to say a 20% concentration of this stuff could do to you.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Rat poison is bad for you, if the kids get it its real bad. but put behind the refrigerator, its kinda handy........

    Its about balance and common sense. The increase in yields for an entire area/world. is offset by some losses in bees? might be a fair trade. as for my bees inthe middle of the chem soup, my losses are normal, and honey production is just as good as ever.
    Common sense regarding balance suggests that top level predators are missing and so rat populations spike; top level predators are missing likely due to loss of habitat, loss of habitat is likely due to clear-cutting and poor agricultural practices, poor agricultural practices come from a desire to count quantity rather than quality, quantity requires fast and easy methods to be profitable, it's necessary to be profitable to afford rat poison (something like that).
    Disclaimer: I've never been a bee.

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