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Neonic facts

69K views 212 replies 30 participants last post by  Ian 
#1 ·
Until actual FACTS are presented that neonics were found IN THE DEAD BEES of deadouts by scientific methods please do not continue to present the conjecture that the bees existance is coming to an end because of it. Opinion is one thing....having proof is entirely different...and so far no proof has been presented. Until that time start your dribble by "in my opinion".
 
#3 ·
Both? Seems more like a dozen to me. I gave up trying to keep track of them all. Too many winter storms, too many beekeepers with too much time on their hands. I plead guilty and throw myself at the mercy of the board for my part in it. Somebody gave the pig wrestling analogy.....that was good. ;)
 
#5 ·
The problem is that there are a lot of new beeks that are looking for help and answers when something is going wrong, or has gone wrong, and people swearing up and down that it's all because of neonics aren't doing them any favors. When you tell a new beek that their hives died this winter because of neonics, it tells them 1) They shouldn't keep bees anymore, because there's nothing they can do to stop their bees from being exposed, and all of their hives will die anyways, and/or 2) They stop trying to find out what actually caused the problem. Yes, it could have been from neonics, but not necessarily. It could have been something that actually is preventable, but they don't know that.

I agree with you Oldforte, people need to stop presenting conjecture as fact and wait for the evidence to roll in.
 
#6 ·
The purpose of this forum is (as far as I know) to promote the free exchange of ideas and information.
That's not happening a lot nowadays.
I've seen a lot of posts that are simply slanderous garbage, posted by a lot of people who are hiding behind a keyboard.
And it's not any particular group, but it is widespread.
People demanding proof of an idea, far beyond what they could possibly provide to support their own position.
If you don't agree with a post, why not say yes, no, or maybe so?
Better yet, why not say nothing, unless you have value to add?

Don't hit send; ask yourself "What good is this going to do?"
It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
I gotta say, a lot of doubt has been removed lately...
 
#8 ·
It looks like you miss the station... are you trying to reverse train's direction? You have emotions but no facts. You probably need to know that in any civilized country any chemical substance, which is used on food needs to be proven harmless to people, domestic stock, environment etc. What you want is to prove that substance is harmful ("fact"). You pushing the train in opposite direction. There is no need to prove that substance is harmful, because by definition, the substance is assumed to be harmful if not proven opposite. Please, do not ask for "facts" - Wikipedia is a good starting point. Many people on this source, who is silenced, will be happy to help if you express the desire to understand, not issue stupid statements. My apology, nothing personal.
 
#10 ·
I think, ignorance is the fact... I have no idea who is "we"? people, who support Bayer&Ko? Believe me, they do not need your support - they have army of lawyers to prove that their chemicals are "harmless". Note: the lawyers, not scientist will decide... It is so weird that many of "you" keep the side of the "big evils"... I would imagine that beekeepers should be protective of their investments... and bee .... well... closer to nature... I think, I misunderstood the entire field...
 
#14 ·
Cerezha,

We're just having some fun at our own expense and people posting with a clear agenda based on a lot of speculation and not based on a lot of facts. We're not saying neonics aren't bad for bees but to recklessly proclaim they're at the key factor in CCD is plain ridiculous and takes away from the other factors that may contribute.
 
#16 ·
...We're just having some fun at our own expense ...
Me - too! I am having fun at your expenses... I think, that we all should have the same agenda - for our bees to be healthy and productive. In order to see if neonics involved in CCD, it must be temporary banned - if CCD persists, than it means that neonics do not cause the CCD and ban may be lifted. Very simple. And we all should be concerned if any substance potentially could be dangerous to our bees. Statements like the beginner of this thread are misleading and provocative... they DO NOT help our bees! I strongly believe that information and knowledge could help. Ignorance - never.
 
#15 ·
Until actual FACTS are presented that neonics were found IN THE DEAD BEES...
Non-sense because it is shown that neonics have effect on bees at sub-lethal dose. Do you know what "sub-lethal" means? It means that bees do not die in the hive - they ...CCD. Now, are you familiar with definition of CCD? Check Wikipedia at least. Absence of the large quantities of the dead bees in the beehive is one of the CCD indicators. Thus, your statement is inaccurate. Also, it looks like, you are not a beekeeper (sorry, nothing personal) because, even myself with very limited bee-experience know that sick bees normally leave the beehive to die away from the hive. This is protection from spreading the "source of death" (may be a chemical or pathogen). Thus, in most cases, there are no dead bees. Now, how you want to find any evidence if technically, there are no substantial amount of dead bees? Where the pig?
 
#18 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Hi Stromnessbees
I have read your thread. Since, neonics affected neuron's connections, irreversibly, there are bunch of different things may happen in bees. I personally, do not feel, I am expert in this. My approach is that if there is ANY evidence that chemical is harmful (to anything!). That chemical needs to be removed from use for clarification. Once proven to be harmless, it may be returned in the business.
From another hand, as another "we" stated correctly, other factors may also contribute to CCD. It is unwise to blame only on neonics - complex approach is necessary.
 
#22 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

My approach is that if there is ANY evidence that chemical is harmful (to anything!). That chemical needs to be removed from use for clarification. Once proven to be harmless, it may be returned in the business.
Many municipal water systems use chlorine to kill live organisms in the water that is distributed to homes and businesses. Chlorine is a deadly chemical. So, under your proposal, chlorine should not be allowed in water treatment plants. Of course, the reality is that without chlorine, or some other potential harmful equivalent, many people would get sick and may die from tainted water.

Even plain old table salt is a "chemical is harmful (to anything!)". If you eat a cup of salt a day, or drink ocean water exclusively, you will soon die! Are you going to ban salt? :eek:
 
#20 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Don't take any aspirin or prescription drugs!
Absolutely! In fact, I do not consume aspirin and I do not need prescription drugs (so far). Your sarcasm is pointless, because even in corrupted system, FDA regularly banned harmful drugs. Usually, it is happening when people died or disabled from the drug. Unfortunately, many drugs/chemicals are harmful and still on the market. The system, when private company invented the chemical AND prove that it is not harmful is direct way to disaster - of coarse, somehow magically chemical is harmless until ... a few people died or disabled ... from officially harmless chemical. Same with neonics - they are by nature may not be harmless because reacts irreversibly with nAChRs in mammals. There is summary on recent scientific publications regarding neonics in mammals if anybody interested:
 

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#23 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

You know who has helped me understand the neonic issue? Randy Oliver. He actually goes through all these studdies and red flags the agenda pushers. He knows the process, he understands a properly prepared study on a subject. He will go through a study related to honeybee health and bring it to a level beekeepers like me can understand.

I think he is the reason why beekeepers on this forum push back at agenda pushers now
 
#27 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

You know who has helped me understand the neonic issue? Randy Oliver. He actually goes through all these studdies and red flags the agenda pushers. He knows the process, he understands a properly prepared study on a subject. He will go through a study related to honeybee health and bring it to a level beekeepers like me can understand.

I think he is the reason why beekeepers on this forum push back at agenda pushers now
That's sure a factor Ian I "devour" everything Randy writes, but my opinion on this issue is what I see and what I experience in my beekeeping operation. The area we run bees in has been overrun with neonic treated row crops in recent years like most everywhere else. CCD? I've never seen it so I guess I really don't know what it is. My experience is much like Mike Palmer describes, I just don't see a problem. Overall our bees are better than they were 10 years ago and we operate a lot of hives over a pretty large area. Control your varroa, keep young well bred queens in your hives and either get bees on some forage or supplement them as needed and stop listening to all the hand wringing by folks that have little to no beekeeping experience or those that have a political agenda. My only agenda is the health and well being of my bees and if I sense a problem you will most definitely be hearing from me. In the meantime I have to figure out what to do with all these bees in my hives.
 
#29 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

You know who has helped me understand the neonic issue? Randy Oliver. He actually goes through all these studdies and red flags the agenda pushers. He knows the process, he understands a properly prepared study on a subject. He will go through a study related to honeybee health and bring it to a level beekeepers like me can understand.

I think he is the reason why beekeepers on this forum push back at agenda pushers now
I agree, but he has become one of the main targets of the anti neonicotinoid campaigners as he tries to take a balanced view of the risks and rewards associated with the stuff. The slurs against people like Randy Oliver and Jerry Bromenshenk are non stop all over the internet on the various campaigning websites.
 
#31 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

I agree, but he has become one of the main targets of the anti neonicotinoid campaigners as he tries to take a balanced view of the risks and rewards associated with the stuff. The slurs against people like Randy Oliver and Jerry Bromenshenk are non stop all over the internet on the various campaigning websites.
Let them, the proof is in the pudding, Randys popularity comes from his balanced perspective on the issues at hand. He helps us identify those agneda pushers.
 
#34 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Here is his website, if anyone is interested

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

cerezha, you should read some of what he is saying. Dont take this invite to his page as an attack on your philosophy, your entitled to your opinion
just read a bit about what Randy has to say
ian, thank you so much for posting this, i intended to but haven't had the chance. i have a research background and can assure everyone that randy's review, analysis, and critique of all of the information available on this subject is absolutely first class and trustworthy.

I agree, but he has become one of the main targets of the anti neonicotinoid campaigners as he tries to take a balanced view of the risks and rewards associated with the stuff. The slurs against people like Randy Oliver and Jerry Bromenshenk are non stop all over the internet on the various campaigning websites.
good point jonathan, and why are we not surprised by that? i would join ian and encourage anyone interested in this subject and and wants to develop an understanding of what is known and what is not known to spend some time reading randy's articles.

those of you who were critical of me for adding stromnessbees and borderbeeman to my 'ignore list' may be less critical after doing so.
 
#25 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Hey Barry,

Why don't you create a forum dedicated to pesticide/CCD for these discussions. Perhaps you could use the Diseases and Pests if you'd rather not start a new one. When posts appear in the main forums (Bee Forum or 101) they can be moved to the appropriate place. I think it would be very beneficial to move this out of the main posting areas. There's very little new information coming in and the rehash with subsequent fighting is really distracting to the mission.
 
#32 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Sevaral great comments on this thread...... from the fact that chemicals like chlorine , and even Iodine... in sub lethal doses there great, but to much and its bad... its about Balance. Neonics are probably not good for bees, no one will dispute that not even the bi companys, but I don't belive they CAUSE CCD as I have been in the middle of them since they started.

What is missing from this discussion on the side of the naysayers, is the value of these chems and GMO...... These things change the way we feed the world. yields today are higher than they have ever been. Despite crackpot comments to the contrary, we yield more per acre than ever before. and the numbers continue to rise. This is a result if the things we want to change or eliminate. so unless your prepared to reduce the population of the world, and pay higher food prices in order to save your beehives you need to step back.

Rat poison is bad for you, if the kids get it its real bad. but put behind the refrigerator, its kinda handy........

Its about balance and common sense. The increase in yields for an entire area/world. is offset by some losses in bees? might be a fair trade. as for my bees inthe middle of the chem soup, my losses are normal, and honey production is just as good as ever.
 
#38 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Good post Charlie. I think the main issue at hand is getting meaningful studies done, studies that don't use highly customized statistical designs to get the results they want to see. Also, instead of fighting with the pesticide companies the beekeeping industry needs to get involved and work with them when testing new products and ensure meaningful studies are done so everyone can walk away happy.
 
#41 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Also, instead of fighting with the pesticide companies the beekeeping industry needs to get involved and work with them when testing new products and ensure meaningful studies are done so everyone can walk away happy.
The British Beekeepers Association tried this strategy, liaising with Bayer and Syngenta and taking sponsorship money. It became a PR disaster due to the perceived conflict of interest. Some things just don't sit well together.
I remember seeing a leaflet for a charity working with street children who abused solvents. It was part funded by the company which produced the glue they were sniffing. It leaves the organization vulnerable to those who have an axe to grind.
 
#44 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Cam beat me to my first point!!

"I just wish, more beekeepers would realize how clear cut the connection is."

Wishing isn't going to make "it" more clear. If it's clear to you in your personal experience, fine. There has been adequate firsthand "realization" in this country that shows there isn't a clear connection. Why can't you accept that?
 
#59 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Pretty weak hearing Randy getting critiqued by a rookie beekeeper thats struggling with basic chemistry. He did say, though, that the fun was just beginning. I guess he was right about that. :)
 
#60 ·
#68 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

of course randy is trying to balance the science with the field work, the article you read was published in the 'american bee journal'. it was written to a beekeeping audience

here is the most recent review:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-18f-colony-collapse-revisited-pesticides/
That's what I like about Randy, he is able to explain things relevant to beekeepers. I cant comb over every detail in a study, I need someone who I can trust to present me with the findings, in an un biased fashion
 
#62 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Strom, still waiting for that definition of "classic CCD" or do you just ignore questions you can't answer?
I think she is afraid to talk or else barry may do what they did in england



Stromnessbees
Banned <-------
About MeStatistics
About Stromnessbees
Biography
studied ecolgy & entomology in Austria
Location
Scotland
Interests
organic farming
Main Hive type used
Smith
Average number of colonies owned
15+
Gender
female
 
#65 ·
Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

Assuming that the above prefers Colony Collapse Disorder. I found this.

Colony collapse disorder (CCD) is a phenomenon in which worker bees from a beehive or European honey bee colony abruptly disappear. While such disappearances have occurred throughout the history of apiculture, the term colony collapse disorder was first applied to a drastic rise in the number of disappearances of Western honey bee colonies in North America in late 2006.

Previously I made the comparison that Neonics and CCD have appeared in roughly the same time frame. I received a reply that CCD has accoured prior to the development of neonics. the above says they did not. CCD did not exist according to the above until 2006. You can decide if it was in 2006 that the condition get it's new name. or that it in fact did not exist. I tend to think that something different is happening and the evidence is it was given a different name.

Also you cannot define something that no one knows what it is.

"Multiple possible causes of CCD have been identified. In 2007, some authorities attributed the problem to biotic factors such as Varroa mites and insect diseases (i.e., pathogens[5] including Nosema apis and Israel acute paralysis virus).[6][7] Other proposed causes include environmental change-related stresses,[8] malnutrition, pesticides (e.g.. neonicotinoids such as clothianidin and imidacloprid[9][10][11]), and migratory beekeeping. More speculative possibilities have included both cell phone radiation[12][13] and genetically modified (GM) crops with pest control characteristics."

Notice above neonicotinoids are specifically listed. with no known answer. none are exempt from suspicion. To give exemption is foolhardy. Neonics are guilty because CCD exists and they are on the list.
 
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