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Thread: Neonic facts

  1. #181
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    He is saying that most of RO's suppot comes from average ;beekeepers...... not GOV or Bayer....
    It is great to have such support, but I do not understand why, he is so shy to disclose the contributors? I think, it is just nice to thank people for their support. If Bayer is is the list - it needs to be acknowledged as well. At the very end of his WEB-site he has a few names, but, they are not "average beekeepers" and there is no Bayer.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  2. #182
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    I'm one of those small contributors. And I'm a small sideliner.

  3. #183
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    I'm one of those small contributors. And I'm a small sideliner.
    Did your name acknowledged properly? It is sad if not. My wife is working for non-profit organization to help kids with low income to get into the college. Even if you contribute $5, they sent a thank you letter. I believe that bigger than $100 are listed.
    Last edited by cerezha; 03-04-2013 at 05:48 PM. Reason: typos
    Серёжа, Sergey

  4. #184
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Any evidence of wrongdoing yet?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #185
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
    And these guys love their "Monster (Monsanto) corn".
    so do we, just the Canadian version lol
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  6. #186
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Any evidence of wrongdoing yet?
    wrongdoing IS do not disclose financial sources and potential conflict of interest in research paper. It is simply requirement to disclose. If you are talking about Randy Oliver - he is publishing in non-scientific journals and thus, non-disclosure of his financial resources is exclusively on him. In my research papers,yes, I do disclose all potential conflict of interests. It is just normal practice. Did I answer your question?
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #187
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    but sergey, randy oliver's papers are not 'research papers'. these are articles for beekeepers. i find them invaluable because he is able to review and critique the research and present it to me in a form that i can digest and use in a practical way. it is clear to me that randy does not have any agenda other than getting to the truth, and that he is not beholding to any of his many contributors. he makes his living as a beekeeper, but he is uniquely educated and qualified to be a reliable source of information for you and i when it comes to making sense out of the science.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #188
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Did I answer your question?
    Good answer, but not really the question I was thinking of, I was thinking of anything wrong with his studies. As you appear to be a researcher / author of papers yourself, you would surely have the understanding to look at his studies and see if they are done correctly?

    As previously stated, it is no secret Bayer paid him for some work, been discussed all over the place. No issues there far as I'm concerned. The original post on this was an attempt to insinuate there is something wrong with his actual studies. Is there? Cos I prefer facts to insinuations when it comes to talking about a named persons integrity.

    There's also a few things starting to worry me about the anti neonics people and methods. I used to think they were good honest folks, sincere in their beliefs. But I've been seeing knowingly wrong advise being dispensed and a refusal to explain it, character assassination of anyone not towing the line, and borderline lies. IE, dirty tactics, and I don't like it.

    Sad, cos me anyway, I'm still very open to being shown that neonics are a major problem and will not let the behaviour of a few stop me having an open mind. But, I need evidence. As a researcher Cerezha you would be the perfect person to find it. Assuming it exists. Keen to see the flaws in Randy's study.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 03-04-2013 at 06:07 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #189
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Good answer, but not really the question I was thinking of, I was thinking of anything wrong with his studies....
    Well
    I already posted my review on Randy's review... it is somewhere buried in the previous posts. It was not welcomed at this forum.

    It is all about interpretation and idea that all science evidence needs to be supported by "real" field observations. In another words, for Randy and EPA the observation (not fact) that bees are doing well in "corn belt" is enough to disregard research made by respected scientists and published in peer-reviewed journal... To me, such approach is not acceptable. "Real field" is tricky - it is not controllable and thus, it is practically impossible to do good science in non-controllable conditions. It is possible but a huge statistics is needed. As far as I know, the only one "anti" campaign which uses a "real field" test successfully - it is anti-tobacco campaign, the correlation between smoking and human death. That "field test" was cost of hundreds of thousand lives before acceptance of the simple idea that tobacco is bad. It was known for decades that nicotine is bad, but to prove it in the "real field" - it took decades and hundreds of thousands lives to prove the obvious thing. I remember how people used this argument: "I am smoking for 20 years and I am in perfect health - thus, smoke is harmful!" - "the real field" argument.

    The toxicity of neonics will be "re-discovered" after many-many deaths and I wish to see what Randy will write than? Oops, apparently, there was a scientific evidence that neonics are irreversibly bind to the Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptors, it was known for decades.... but bees were doing well, Ooops

    Did I satisfy your curiosity? Take care.
    Last edited by cerezha; 03-04-2013 at 06:50 PM.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #190

    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I prefer facts to insinuations when it comes to talking about a named persons integrity.
    The moment folks will accuse another of professional dishonesty...without a stitch of evidence...they no longer have anything to say that I care to hear.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  11. #191
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    I don't have a solution, people who suggest many small organic farms are the solution really do not know the problem.
    The problem is we have an addiction for things that are cheap and lose site of the end game. It is nice to be able to buy things that are cheap until you no longer have a job because we didn't think ahead. 5000000 chickens is a factory that produces cheap chickens and cheap eggs, both suck as a food product but at the market they look good. If you are going to solve problems in the future you can't have a mind set that only looks at today.

    I don't know if the powerful corporation can be turned around. They are certainly not going to give up their power no more than a worthless congressman would. The only thing the little guy has going for him is the "demand" factor in a free economy. Large corporations offer organic foods now when they insisted there was no difference. Seems like there is, even if in their eyes it is only economics.

    Jim, what is happening is not sustainable. So when the crash comes be prepared for the bail out on the backs of the middle class ... another depression. Probably it will top the great depression. The difference is the wealthy will not be jumping off the empire state building or any sizable bridge like happened in 39. It will be more like the bank and wall street bail out where the middle class will get screwed. We have a socialistic not a "free" market economy.
    "Too big to fail" how dumb can we be?

    All empires fall because they can not see the future. The United States of America is surely in a decline. Is it so hard to predict the future?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #192
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Re post #189

    Well some fair points, I'm going to accept that Cerezha. I did read the previous post you mentioned, but didn't really consider it that valuable because it focussed on critique of basing a paper on research done by others, but Randy is entitled to do that he is collating info into a format to be read by beekeepers, but mainly, he does not just do that, he also does his own work.

    Still don't think the study was deliberately skewed or anything, however again, I accept the points you raise, but it's not enough to question the mans integrity.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #193
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post

    Jim, what is happening is not sustainable. So when the crash comes be prepared for the bail out on the backs of the middle class ... another depression. Probably it will top the great depression. The difference is the wealthy will not be jumping off the empire state building or any sizable bridge like happened in 39. It will be more like the bank and wall street bail out where the middle class will get screwed. We have a socialistic not a "free" market economy.
    "Too big to fail" how dumb can we be?

    All empires fall because they can not see the future. The United States of America is surely in a decline. Is it so hard to predict the future?
    Actually I agree in large part with what you are saying (did I just say that?). I am not going to get long winded because we are wandering a bit off topic but let it suffice to say that I differ largely because I dont believe that the profit motive is inherently bad or even unique to big business. Every time I use a new invention that makes my life a little easier or my business a little more profitable I think to myself "whoever invented this deserves to be rich"
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #194
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ...Still don't think the study was deliberately skewed or anything, however again, I accept the points you raise, but it's not enough to question the mans integrity.
    I do not think that study was purposely biased. As I explained in my old post-review, my explanation is that Randy was trying to balance too much between hard science and .... beekeepers (who provide financial support). It is very difficult to keep a balance in such situation... "Realistic field test" is not Randy's "invention", it is actually EPA! But Randy support it. It may be interested to know for this audience that according EPA, there is no connection yet between the alcohol and human health - just not enough statistics, the facts (deaths). Similarly, it took hundreds of thousands deaths to prove that asbest is dangerous... lead, you name it...

    "but it's not enough to question the mans integrity" - I am not questioning anybody integrity. But, you need to understand that I DO have my own integrity also - my "integrity" "forced" me to be humiliated on this forum by advocating for truth and science... so weird...

    Thank you so much everyone, who supported my efforts.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  15. #195
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I don't know if the powerful corporation can be turned around.
    oh yes they can, its the consumer that drives the market

    just look at organic food production, corporation interests very active producing that crop
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #196
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    The Locavore and Organic movements have much potential, but I doubt they have the ability to feed the world as we seem required to do. The Locavore and Organic consumers are largely the "High End", the masses are still eating my nephews chickens...
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  17. #197
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Who are these farmers? ...
    I'm a farmer, an organic one even.

    Just catching up on this thread. I have seen similar discussions on another forum, this topic is a minefield.
    Question is, who sets the mines?

  18. #198
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    As an independent organic farmer and beekeeper I am very suspicious of industry funded agencies.
    - on that note I found this post quite thought provoking:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...471#post903471
    Last edited by Barry; 03-05-2013 at 06:49 AM. Reason: excessive quoting

  19. #199
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by johnthefarmer View Post
    As an independent organic farmer and beekeeper I am very suspicious of industry funded agencies.
    - on that note I found this post quite thought provoking:
    Hi "JohntheFarmer" - what do you organically farm on the Orkneys? Sheep? Maybe those tough little Cheviots. What do you find thought provoking about your "CrossPost"?

    Do you know Stromness bees? You must as the Orkneys are not a large place.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  20. #200
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by johnthefarmer View Post
    I have seen similar discussions on another forum, this topic is a minefield.
    Question is, who sets the mines?
    Hi John -

    That really isn't the question. The question is are neonics the main cause of massive bee die-offs. So if you have something to add in this discussion, please do. Cheerleading and casting aspersions gets old quickly.
    Regards, Barry

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