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Thread: Neonic facts

  1. #1
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    Default Neonic facts

    Until actual FACTS are presented that neonics were found IN THE DEAD BEES of deadouts by scientific methods please do not continue to present the conjecture that the bees existance is coming to an end because of it. Opinion is one thing....having proof is entirely different...and so far no proof has been presented. Until that time start your dribble by "in my opinion".

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    It's ok, I've killed both of those threads apparently.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    It's ok, I've killed both of those threads apparently.
    Both? Seems more like a dozen to me. I gave up trying to keep track of them all. Too many winter storms, too many beekeepers with too much time on their hands. I plead guilty and throw myself at the mercy of the board for my part in it. Somebody gave the pig wrestling analogy.....that was good.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    It's ok, I've killed both of those threads apparently.
    Do you feel better if you shut up different opinion(s)? You are very naive if think that you are in power to change somebody. People just drift away from this source. As a result, you guys could enjoy yourself... references to the absence of the "facts" is just pathetic and sad. If somebody is not capable to learn something new outside of the box, than, yes, for this blind mind - there are no "facts"! Why, because, facts are outside of the box. My apology, nothing personal.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    The problem is that there are a lot of new beeks that are looking for help and answers when something is going wrong, or has gone wrong, and people swearing up and down that it's all because of neonics aren't doing them any favors. When you tell a new beek that their hives died this winter because of neonics, it tells them 1) They shouldn't keep bees anymore, because there's nothing they can do to stop their bees from being exposed, and all of their hives will die anyways, and/or 2) They stop trying to find out what actually caused the problem. Yes, it could have been from neonics, but not necessarily. It could have been something that actually is preventable, but they don't know that.

    I agree with you Oldforte, people need to stop presenting conjecture as fact and wait for the evidence to roll in.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    The purpose of this forum is (as far as I know) to promote the free exchange of ideas and information.
    That's not happening a lot nowadays.
    I've seen a lot of posts that are simply slanderous garbage, posted by a lot of people who are hiding behind a keyboard.
    And it's not any particular group, but it is widespread.
    People demanding proof of an idea, far beyond what they could possibly provide to support their own position.
    If you don't agree with a post, why not say yes, no, or maybe so?
    Better yet, why not say nothing, unless you have value to add?

    Don't hit send; ask yourself "What good is this going to do?"
    It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
    I gotta say, a lot of doubt has been removed lately...

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    You're right Jim, I should tally them up, it's hardwork, but somebody has to do be the kaboose.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    You're right Jim, I should tally them up, it's hardwork, but somebody has to do be the kaboose.
    It looks like you miss the station... are you trying to reverse train's direction? You have emotions but no facts. You probably need to know that in any civilized country any chemical substance, which is used on food needs to be proven harmless to people, domestic stock, environment etc. What you want is to prove that substance is harmful ("fact"). You pushing the train in opposite direction. There is no need to prove that substance is harmful, because by definition, the substance is assumed to be harmful if not proven opposite. Please, do not ask for "facts" - Wikipedia is a good starting point. Many people on this source, who is silenced, will be happy to help if you express the desire to understand, not issue stupid statements. My apology, nothing personal.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Soooo, . . . we ignore the facts, . ?

    Jim, where is that pig !
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Soooo, . . . we ignore the facts, . ?

    Jim, where is that pig !
    I think, ignorance is the fact... I have no idea who is "we"? people, who support Bayer&Ko? Believe me, they do not need your support - they have army of lawyers to prove that their chemicals are "harmless". Note: the lawyers, not scientist will decide... It is so weird that many of "you" keep the side of the "big evils"... I would imagine that beekeepers should be protective of their investments... and bee .... well... closer to nature... I think, I misunderstood the entire field...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    It is so weird that many of "you" keep the side of the "big evils"...
    I see them keeping the side of reality, and when in doubt, take a wait and see attitude.
    Regards, Barry

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I see them keeping the side of reality, and when in doubt, take a wait and see attitude.
    I think, the reality is different to different "we"... to me, the reality is that CCD is happened and so far there is no good explanation what caused it. Neurotoxins obviously (to me) may cause all kind of problems including "suicidal" behavior, dementia etc. Now, imagine the suicidal bee with dementia. Imagine many such bees. Do you want such "crazy" bees in your beehive? OK, neonics are neurotoxins to insects (and human, depends from dose) including bees. They do not kill bees (depends from dose) - they made them "crazy". Understood? "Crazy" bees one day will decide to go out, together and forever ... Does not look like CCD? Now, "crazy" we will ask for the "facts"...

    Another "we" probably see this differently - it seems to me, they afraid to face the reality (it is ugly) and just wanted to have peaceful life as it was 40 years ago without varroa and strange words like "neonics", CCD ... I have deep respect to these "we" as long as they do not speak for other "we-s".
    Серёжа, Sergey

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post

    Jim, where is that pig !
    Just beam me up before the wrestling match begins.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Cerezha,

    We're just having some fun at our own expense and people posting with a clear agenda based on a lot of speculation and not based on a lot of facts. We're not saying neonics aren't bad for bees but to recklessly proclaim they're at the key factor in CCD is plain ridiculous and takes away from the other factors that may contribute.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by oldforte View Post
    Until actual FACTS are presented that neonics were found IN THE DEAD BEES...
    Non-sense because it is shown that neonics have effect on bees at sub-lethal dose. Do you know what "sub-lethal" means? It means that bees do not die in the hive - they ...CCD. Now, are you familiar with definition of CCD? Check Wikipedia at least. Absence of the large quantities of the dead bees in the beehive is one of the CCD indicators. Thus, your statement is inaccurate. Also, it looks like, you are not a beekeeper (sorry, nothing personal) because, even myself with very limited bee-experience know that sick bees normally leave the beehive to die away from the hive. This is protection from spreading the "source of death" (may be a chemical or pathogen). Thus, in most cases, there are no dead bees. Now, how you want to find any evidence if technically, there are no substantial amount of dead bees? Where the pig?
    Серёжа, Sergey

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Neonic facts

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    ...We're just having some fun at our own expense ...
    Me - too! I am having fun at your expenses... I think, that we all should have the same agenda - for our bees to be healthy and productive. In order to see if neonics involved in CCD, it must be temporary banned - if CCD persists, than it means that neonics do not cause the CCD and ban may be lifted. Very simple. And we all should be concerned if any substance potentially could be dangerous to our bees. Statements like the beginner of this thread are misleading and provocative... they DO NOT help our bees! I strongly believe that information and knowledge could help. Ignorance - never.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  17. #17
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    Lightbulb Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    ...
    Neurotoxins obviously (to me) may cause all kind of problems including "suicidal" behavior, dementia etc. Now, imagine the suicidal bee with dementia. Imagine many such bees. Do you want such "crazy" bees in your beehive? OK, neonics are neurotoxins to insects (and human, depends from dose) including bees. They do not kill bees (depends from dose) - they made them "crazy". Understood? "Crazy" bees one day will decide to go out, together and forever ... Does not look like CCD? Now, "crazy" we will ask for the "facts"...
    Hi Cerezha!

    I can see that you have been wondering about the curious case of CCD as well.

    I have followed the reports about CCD closely and read the up to date scientific literature, and I have seen CCD repeatedly myself, luckily not in my own hives.

    To me there is no doubt that it is caused by neonicotinoids, and I have tried to find an explanation for the delayed disappearance of the bees.
    Please check out this thread where I explain my theory:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...nation-for-CCD

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Hi Stromnessbees
    I have read your thread. Since, neonics affected neuron's connections, irreversibly, there are bunch of different things may happen in bees. I personally, do not feel, I am expert in this. My approach is that if there is ANY evidence that chemical is harmful (to anything!). That chemical needs to be removed from use for clarification. Once proven to be harmless, it may be returned in the business.
    From another hand, as another "we" stated correctly, other factors may also contribute to CCD. It is unwise to blame only on neonics - complex approach is necessary.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    My approach is that if there is ANY evidence that chemical is harmful (to anything!). That chemical needs to be removed from use for clarification.
    Don't take any aspirin or prescription drugs!

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Summer bees vs winter bees?

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    Don't take any aspirin or prescription drugs!
    Absolutely! In fact, I do not consume aspirin and I do not need prescription drugs (so far). Your sarcasm is pointless, because even in corrupted system, FDA regularly banned harmful drugs. Usually, it is happening when people died or disabled from the drug. Unfortunately, many drugs/chemicals are harmful and still on the market. The system, when private company invented the chemical AND prove that it is not harmful is direct way to disaster - of coarse, somehow magically chemical is harmless until ... a few people died or disabled ... from officially harmless chemical. Same with neonics - they are by nature may not be harmless because reacts irreversibly with nAChRs in mammals. There is summary on recent scientific publications regarding neonics in mammals if anybody interested:
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Серёжа, Sergey

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