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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    >>>I totally AGREE with you that SCIENCE IS NEVER GOING TO ANSWER THIS ISSUE - because the big money running the science is absolutely determined that it will never wander anywhere near the truth. <<<

    Thats the exact reason why you posted such an exaggerated story,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    >>>he best hypothesis that makes sense to me, is the global use of a family of hyper-toxic, highly persistent, highly soluble, INSECTICIDIES<<<

    would of been useful to hear that in your story.
    the cause of bee death in your story is YOUR HYPOTHESIS

    just a question boarderbeeman, how many times have you spun that story, with a different face? Seems like a cut and paste kinda story. Did the wild life federations get the same story but with FROGS as the frount?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    if it don't effect honey bees go and spray some your bees and see what happens "ccd"

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Hmmm..

    24th February 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    First off - the only 'agenda' I have is that I am a beekeeper and conservationist who has seen 70% of his bees die in the last 5 years, repeatedly.
    25th January 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post

    I haven't lost a hive for two years now - but there has been little or no honey harvest for three years.
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...263#post612263

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by franktrujillo View Post
    if it don't effect honey bees go and spray some your bees and see what happens "ccd"
    My definition would bee pesticide kill.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Anyone consider the possibility of and unscrupulous competitor poisoning his hives ? The losses seem very extreme.

  7. #107
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    I haven't lost a hive for two years now - but there has been little or no honey harvest for three years.

    Do we have a bit of a wee "Troll" here?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    He is very fortunate that he only got the California version of CCD.... had he been unlucky enough to get the Mississippi version of CCD... even his boxes would have disappeared.

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by SippyBees View Post
    He is very fortunate that he only got the California version of CCD.... had he been unlucky enough to get the Mississippi version of CCD... even his boxes would have disappeared.
    very good I needed a good laugh.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  10. #110
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    Default

    deleted

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    >>>he best hypothesis that makes sense to me, is the global use of a family of hyper-toxic, highly persistent, highly soluble, INSECTICIDIES<<<

    just a question boarderbeeman, how many times have you spun that story, with a different face? Seems like a cut and paste kinda story. Did the wild life federations get the same story but with FROGS as the frount?
    Actually the 47 wildlife trusts have had zero input from me or from any beekeepers as far as I know. They refused to even consider neonics as a cause of insect, bird and amphibian declines until just a few months ago. The publication of the European Environment Agency Report - compiled by an expert review panel of scientists drawn from each of 27 different European Member States - THAT convinced them that the effect of neonics was real and that it was decimating wildlife.

    You can read the entire report here:

    http://www.eea.europa.eu/publications/late-lessons-2

    The chapter relating to Bee Deaths and Neonicotinoid Pesticides is I think Chapter 16 and summarises ALL the peer-reviewed studies as far back as 1994 - there are a lot of them.


    The Royal Society of Wildlife Trusts published its own Policy Report based on an in-depth review of more than 15 years of scientific research. You can download and read it here:

    http://smallbluemarble.org.uk/wp-con...tober-2012.pdf

    THANKS by the way for reminding me about the frogs - I will repost the above link as a new posting because:
    a. It is very, very important
    b. This thread is too long and diverse

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen

    OK, I'll ask myself ....

    24th February 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    First off - the only 'agenda' I have is that I am a beekeeper and conservationist who has seen 70% of his bees die in the last 5 years, repeatedly.

    25th January 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    I haven't lost a hive for two years now - but there has been little or no honey harvest for three years.
    Why aren't your "stories" consistent? Is it that hard to keep them straight from one post to another?




    Just a reminder, anyone wanting to check the accuracy of Beesource quotes can click the blue arrow in the quote box.

    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 02-24-2013 at 11:48 AM. Reason: add quote checking info
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen

    Anyone can jump to conclusions and make ANY data or result say what they want. I think most of the heavy hitters in this thread are just asking for SOLID data.... that is ALL.... is that too hard for anyone to understand? EVERY commercial beek in the WORLD is worried about neonicotinoids, or ANY other product that will destroy their livelihood. But to just scream the sky is falling DISCREDITS potential REAL arguments buy the people with REAL data.
    The guy in Cali lost 2000+ hives @ lets say $200/ hive value... lost revenue of lets say $150/ hive X 2000 hives.... = $700,000 in REAL MONEY. After 6 pages of discussion about all this are you telling me that some beekeeper lost almost 1 MILLION dollars and has not even had his hives examined/ wax tested/ dead bees tested for ANYTHING? He just decided that exposure to neonicotinoids 4 months ago MUST be the reason?????
    I am not calling anyone names.... but if this is true... he is either a VERY bad businessman.... doesn't CARE what really happened to his bees..... or... is an idiot. If there are other possibilities.... feel free to express them. But if "I" lost $700,000 dollars... I will spend just a few more hundred or maybe a thousand to find out WHY and MAYBE assign some kind of liability to someone other than myself only.
    Everyone here has asked the same question from borderbeeman.... but no answer... just the same industry is killing the world song and dance. IF it is true we DO all CARE.... but empty allegations and theoretical science is not gonna prove anything.
    FWIW

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen

    I'll line up with Sippy and others. Hard data is needed to prove the relationship of neonicotinoids to the stated bee deaths. What is in the article referenced is nothing but sensationalized gobbledygook. At the same time, I am convinced that neonics are a problem. Just not convinced they are THE problem in this case.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen

    There is some evidence emerging that they may be more of a problem for solitary bees and general pollinators than for honey bees.

    the whitehorn et al study showed that bumble bees produced smaller nests and fewer queens.

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I'll line up with Sippy and others. Hard data is needed to prove the relationship of neonicotinoids to the stated bee deaths. What is in the article referenced is nothing but sensationalized gobbledygook. At the same time, I am convinced that neonics are a problem. Just not convinced they are THE problem in this case.

    DarJones
    Hi Dar, love your quote of JBS Haldane - a personal scientific hero of mine since I was knee high.

    Here is as much 'hard evidence' as you can probably get through in a long winter: download here:

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/commit...ageDocument=EN

    DIRECTORATE GENERAL OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
    REPORT: "Existing Scientific Evidence of the Effect of Neonicotinoid Pesticides on Bees"


    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
    KEY FINDINGS

     Although bee declines can be attributed to multifarious causes, the use of
    neonicotinoids is increasingly held responsible for recent honeybee losses.

    Neonicotinoids show high acute toxicity to honeybees.

    Chronic exposure of honeybees to sub-lethal doses of neonicotinoids can also
    result in serious effects, which include a wide range of behavioural disturbances in
    bees, such as problems with flying and navigation, impaired memory and learning,
    reduced foraging ability, as well as reduction in breeding success and disease
    resistance.


     Recent scientific findings are urging us to reassess the bee safety of approved uses of
    neonicotinoid insecticides at European level. A current review, carried out by the
    European Food Safety Authority EFSA (on behalf of the European Commission) will
    give new insights into this issue.

    As long as there are uncertainties concerning the effects of neonicotinoids on honey bees, the Precautionary Principle should be applied when using neonicotinoids in accordance with the Regulation (EC) No 1107/2009 [i.e. they should be banned until proven safe]

    SCIENTIFIC REFERENCES (you asked for 'em )

    REFERENCES
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    microspores and a neonicotinoid weaken honeybees (Apis mellifera). Environ Microbiol
    2010; 12(3):774-82. 16.
     Alix, A.; Adams, L.; Brown, M.; Campbell, P.; Capri, E.; Kafka, A.; Kasiotis, K.;
    Machera, K.; Maus, C.; Miles, M.; Moraru, P.; Navarro, L.; Pistorius, J.; Thompson, H.;
    Marchis, A. (2011): Bee health in Europe – Facts & figures. Compendium of the latest
    information on bee health in Europe. OPERA Research Centre. ,Page(s): 52 S.
     Apenet (2011a): Unaapi´s synthesis and highlighting of the report on activities and
    results of the Apenet project "Effects of coated maize seed on honey bees" 2011:
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    /IT/IDPagina/860
     Apenet (2011b): Letter to the Agricultural Committee of the European Parliament, 30.
    sept 2011, Prof. Stefano Maini, APENET, Bologna University, Italy.
     Blacquière, T.; Smagghe, G.; van Gestel, C. A. M.; Mommaerts, V. (2012):
    neonicotinoides in bees: a review on concentrations, side-effects and risk assessment.
    Ecotoxicology; DOI 10.1007/s10646-012-0863-x
     Breeze, T.; Roberts, S.; Potts, S. (2012): The Decline of England`s Bees. Policy Review
    and Recommendations. University of Reading. 4/29/2012.
     Commission Directive 2010/21/EU of 12 March 2010 amending Annex I to Council
    Directive 91/414/EEC as regards the specific provisions relating to clothianidin,
    thiamethoxam, fipronil and imidacloprid, OJ 2010 L 65, p. 27.
     Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) No 540/2011of 25 May 2011 implementing
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    PE 492.465 24
    Existing Scientific Evidence of the Effects of Neonicotinoid Pesticides on Bees

     Gallai, N.; Salles, J.; Settele, J. & Vaissiere, B. (2009): Economic valuation of the
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    coated seeds to seedling guttation drops: a novel way of intoxication for bees. Journal
    of economic entomology; 102(5):1808-15.
     Girsch, L. & Moosbeckhofer, R. (2012): Untersuchungen zum Auftreten von
    Bienenverlusten in Mais- und Rapsanbaugebieten Österreichs und möglicher
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    Effects of Neonicotinoid Insecticides on Bees, with Recommendations for Actions. 32pp.
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    Kremen, C. & Tscharntke, T. (2007) Importance of pollinators in changing landscapes
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     Krupke, C.H.; Hunt, G.J.; Eitzer, B.D.; Andino, G. & Given, K. (2012): Multiple Routes
    of Pesticide Exposure for Honey Bees Living Near Agricultural Fields. PLoS ONE 7(1):
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     Liu, Z.; Williamson, M.S.; Lansdell, S.J.; Han, Z.; Denholm, I. & Millar NS (2006): A
    nicotinic acetylcholine receptor mutation (Y151S) causes reduced agonist potency to a
    range of neonicotinoid insecticides. Department of Pharmacology, University College
    London, UK. Journal of Neurochemistry. 2006 Nov;99(4):1273-81.
     Lu, C.; Warchol, K. & Callahan, R. (2012): In situ replication of honey bee colony
    collapse disorder, Bulletin of lnsectology 65 (1): 99-106, 2012.
     Maini, S.; Medrzycki, P. & Porrini, C. (2010): The puzzle of honey bee losses: a brief
    review. Bulletin of Insectology, 63 (1), 153-160, 2010.
     Motohiro, T. (2004), Neonicotinoids and Derivatives: Effects in Mammalian Cells and
    Mice", Journal of Pesticide Science 29: 177–183
    Mullin, C.A.; Frazier, M.; Frazier, J.L.; Ashcraft, S.; Simonds, R.; Vanengelsdorp, D. &
    Pettis, J.S. (2010): High levels of miticides and agrochemicals in North American
    apiaries: implications for honey bee health. PLoS One. 2010 Mar 19;5(3):e9754.
     Neumann, P. & Carreck, N. L. (2010): Honey bee colony losses. J. Apicultural Research
    49(1), 1-6; DOI: 10.3896/IBRA.1.49.1.01
     Pesticide Action Network UK (2012): Different regulatory positions on neonicotinoids
    across Europe. Bee Declines & Pesticides factsheet 4: www.pan-uk.org

     Pesticide Action Network UK (2012 a): Can restrictions on systemic insecticides help
    restore bee health. Bee Declines & Pesticides factsheet 5: www.pan-uk.org

     Pettis, J. S.; van Engelsdorp, D.; Johnson, J & Dively, G. (2012): Pesticide exposure in
    honey bees results in increased levels of the gut pathogen Nosema.
    Naturwissenschaften 99(2), pp. 153-158.
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    W.E. (2010a). Global pollinator declines: trends, impacts, and drivers. Trends Ecol.
    Evol. 25: 345-353.
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    P. & Settele, J. (2010) Declines of managed honeybees and beekeepers in Europe.
    Journal of Apicultural Research 49: 15-22
     Potts, S.G.; Biesmeijer, J.C.; Bommarco, R.; Felicioli, A.; Fischer, M.; Jokinen, P.;
    Kleijn, D.; Klein, A.; Kunin, W.; Neumann, P.; Penev, L.; Petanidou, T.; Rasmont, P.;
    Roberts, S.P.M.; Smith, H.G.; Sørensen, P.; Steffan-Dewenter, I.; Vaissière, B.E.; Vilà,
    M.; Vujić, A.; Woyciechowski, M.; Zobel, M.; Settele, J. & Schweiger, O. (2011)
    Developing European conservation and mitigation tools for pollination services:
    approaches of the STEP (Status and Trends of European Pollinators) project. Journal of
    Apicultural Research 50/2: 152-164. http://dx.doi.org/10.3896/IBRA.1.50.2.07

     Setac (2011): Summary of the SETAC Pellston Workshop on Pesticide Risk Assessment
    for Pollinators, 15–21 January 2011, Pensacola, Florida, USA
     Spivak, M.; Mader, E.; Vaughan, M. & N.H. Euliss (2011): The Plight of the Bees.
    Environmental Science & Technology, 45 (1), pp. 34-38.
     Stokstad, E. (2012): Field Research on Bees Raises Concern About Low-Dose Pesticides
    Science 30 March 2012: 1555.
     Tennekes, H.A. (2010a): The significance of the Druckrey-Küpfmüller equation for risk
    assessment--the toxicity of neonicotinoid insecticides to arthropods is reinforced by
    exposure time. Toxicology. 2010 Sep 30;276(1):1-4.
     Tennekes, H.A. (2010b): Systemic Insecticides: A disaster in the making. ETS
    Nederland BV, Zutphen, The Netherlands.
     Tennekes, H.A. & Sánchez-Bajo, F. (2011): Time-dependent toxicity of neonicotinoids
    and other toxicants: Implications for a new approach to risk assessment. J Environment
    Analytic Toxicol 2011, S:4.
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    suppression by neonicotinoid insecticides at the root of global wildlife declines. Journal
    of Environmental Immunology and Toxicology (uncorrected proofs attached).
    Corresponding Author: Francisco Sanchez-Bayo, PhD. University of Technology Sydney,
    Lidcombe, NSW AUSTRALIA.
    PE 492.465 26
    Existing Scientific Evidence of the Effects of Neonicotinoid Pesticides on Bees

     Topolska, G.; Gajda A. & Hartwig A. (2008): Polish honey bee colony losses during the
    winter of 2007/2008, J. Apic. Sci. 52, 95–104.
     Whitehorn, P.R.; O’Connor, S.; Goulson, D. & Wackers, F.L. (2012): Neonicotinoid
    Pesticide Reduces Bumble Bee Colony Growth and Queen Production. Science 20 April
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    olony_Disorder_and_Threats_i
    nsect_pollinators.pdf
     Van Dijk, T.C. (2010): Effects of neonicotinoid pesticide pollution of Dutch surface water
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    Environment and Biodiversity (SD: LEB). Utrecht University.
     Vidau, C.; Diogon, M. & Aufauvre, J. et al. (2011): Exposure to sub-lethal doses of
    fipronil and thiacloprid highly increases mortality of honeybees previously infected by
    Nosema ceranae. PloS One 2011; 6(6): e21550.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen

    Jonathan... this thread could have been started as a general discussion about all the studies and experiences of neonicotinoids... and that would have been FINE... am sure this topic has been discussed a bit in the past.... no problem bringing it up for discussion anytime. BUT.. the OP connected neonicotinoids with the experiences of a SPECIFIC beekeeper who had a HUGE loss. THAT is what the thread started as.... but as of YET, there has been NO information that tied the loss to ANY specific cause other than just a wild guess.
    In my opinion it MUST have been toxic nuclear waste from the San Onofre nuclear station... who have been secretly burying radioactive waste at the same location as the Beek had his bees. I can give you 1000's of pages of data that show radiation will kill all life. So from THIS conclusion I support that we BAN all nuclear plants and import more OIL from the middle east ... cuz I KNOW you are not gonna stop driving or disconnect your house from the grid.
    HOW FAR do you think you can pull people down the rabbit's hole before they say HEY.. how did we get HERE?
    Tell the beek who lost all those hives to have some tests done.... let us discuss the results here... THAT is what the OP implied from the beginning.... THEN you may have some folks who truly will share your concern.

  18. #118
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    Edinburgh, UK
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    Default Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen

    [QUOTE=SippyBees;899899]In my opinion it MUST have been toxic nuclear waste from the San Onofre nuclear station... who have been secretly burying radioactive waste at the same location as the Beek had his bees. I can give you 1000's of pages of data that show radiation will kill all life. So from THIS conclusion I support that we BAN all nuclear plants and import more OIL from the middle east ... cuz I KNOW you are not gonna stop driving or disconnect your house from the grid.
    QUOTE]

    you are indulging in 'argumentum ad absurdum' - i.e. - avoiding the serious discussion by reducing everything to a silly and absurd argument. Hey: 'the moon's made of green cheese, the aliens are killing all the bees with their mental waves and the only thing protecting you from the 'mind bending' is your tinfoil hat with the propellor on top."

    I never asked you to show ANY concern, I just posted an interesting eye-witness account from an American bee-farmer, which I consider worth sharing. I think, like Dave Hackenberg's testimony from five years back - that this will prove to be a classic account of CCD induced by months of repeated exposure to neonicotinoid treated corn, canola and soybeans, enhanced and synergised by combination with other tank-mixes of fungicides and cyhalothrin-based pesticides.

    Indulging in 'reductio-ad-absurdum' arguments does you no credit, regardless of what you think. We are talking about the greatest ecological/ bee catastrophe to affect the USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Slovenia, Austria, Holland, Switzerland, Argentina, Japan and Australia - since apiculture began. Many of those countries have appointed the highest level scientific commissions which they are able to convene - to consider almost 20 years of peer reviewed scientific evidence of the impact of neonicotinoids on bees and wildlife ecosystems. The result of those commissions, were Government bans on neonicotinoids in France, Germany, Italy - as long ago as 2000AD. In 2003, the American EPA's own Environmental Fates Division recommended that Clothianidin should not be given a licence in by the EPA becauseL

    1.Clothianidin is extremely toxic to honeybees and other pollinating insects
    2. Clothianidin has the potential to cause serious sub-lethal poisoning of honeybees at extremely low doses
    3. Clothianidin is highly persistent (1155 days was mentioned) in soil
    4. Clothianidin is both highly soluble and persistent in ground water - and poses an obvious threat to drinking water.

    So what did the EPA do with its own science division's recommendation?
    They tore it up and gave Clothianidin a rubber stamp license, without even requiring the Full Life Cycle study which the Science Division had demanded.

    Do you think this could have had anything to do with the fact that Bush appointed a string of former Monsanto lawyers and executives to run the EPA throughout the 90s?
    Last edited by borderbeeman; 02-24-2013 at 01:03 PM.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Well, what you have said here doesn't really make sense to me. If there is no trace remaining, how was it determined that ANY exposure to neonics resulted in colony death?

    And since I've already asked once, I'll ask again. How do you explain the fact that my apiaries are surrounded by neonic corn, and the bees remain productive...and alive? Clothianidin has been used in my area since 2004. I asked the applicator what % of the corn in the valley has been treated with clothianidin. His reply...100%

    You can call me a shill if you want to, for questioning your hypothesis, but I will continue my questions until you can give me a logical answer...

    Considering that my non-migratory bees are surrounded by clothianidin treated corn, why are they not all dead?
    Isn't it clear that you have developed clothianidin tolerant bees? Maybe you should sell some queens to Hack and Mendes.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,147

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    Absolutely not. My friend is just working at his busiest time of the year - on the almond pollination - and in the middle of a financial disaster. He has a whole crew working with him, and when I last skyped him, he was not getting much sleep. We have not discussed in detail, why he wants to remain anonymous for now - but he did indicate that 'he did not want the chemical companies on his neck at the busiest time of the year'. I think that he WILL decide to go 'on the record' as soon as his workload drops off, and presumably when he has managed to carry out any invcestigations that
    Alright. Thanks. I hope he does well in the groves.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

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