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  1. #61
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    Jan 2010
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    Stromness, Scotland
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    122

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    If you had hopped on a plane in London last summer and flown to Minneapolis, Minnesota and then drove a few hours southwest from there into the heart of the most intensive neonic treated monocultures of corn and soybeans imaginable, how many bumblebees, honeybees and butterflies do you think you would you see along the crop field margins? Here is what you would see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE

    This video does show a nice strip of flowering plants with pollinators.
    But it doesn't tell you how long the field next to it has been treated with neonics.
    This might well be the first year, so you would find all the bumbles still around.

    Come back in a year or two and compare, you will be very lucky to see the same amount of wildlife.

    Anybody can go out and visit field margins in areas that have had neonics applied for a few years, they will be very poor indeed.

    Go and check it for yourself, don't just believe what is said on this forum!

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    syracuse n.y.
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    1,645

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post

    Go and check it for yourself, don't just believe what is said on this forum!
    from bee-l about Mr White and his promotion of his agenda.



    Well-meaning exaggeration is common. The Guardian, a pro-environ*ment British newspaper, mangled my parliamentary evidence on moths and beetles to claim that three-quarters of all UK pollinator species, including bees, were in severe decline.




    http://www.nature.com/news/bees-lies...policy-1.12443


    It is orchestrated, Jerry. There are a couple of beekeepers in the UK who look for any study that can be used to promote an agenda against pesticides, then build up a story to feed to newspapers, and circulate them as widely as they can elsewhere. They have no interest in the real position but simply wish to raise worries about pesticides. I know that with certainty because I have challenged one of them on several occasions on UK beekeeping fora to debate the issue and he just disappears, sometimes after issuing insults. In the meantime one of the leading UK newspapers takes the story and the twisted message gets relayed to the public. In recent weeks this story and the one on multiple routes for clothianidin exposure have been misrepresented


    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...%3BMatches&z=4


    Take a look at the last sentence in that message forwarded by Ghislain:

    'NB Bayer, Syngenta and their associates are busily savaging the latest scientific report from Harvard.'

    He means, in addition to a few others, the people who posted here recently on the Harvard paper. Allen, Dean, Randy, Bill, and all the others, you are now 'associates' of agrochemical companies because you criticised the Harvard junk science. The Bee-L discussions were pointed out to the author of that circular when he posted in various places celebrating the Harvard study as yet more proof of the evils of neonicotinoids, so he knows about your posts. You argue for rational thought, and you get called an associate of an agrochemical company.

    This message came from Graham White, a one-man propaganda machine based in the Scottish borders. His posts are all over the internet now, often under the name of Borderbeeman and in some newspaper websites as Borderglider. This Dutch video he is now promoting is a nasty piece of work which, in soft tones, does a one-sided hatchet job on Dutch scientists trying to find the truth in all this morass of propaganda and poor science.

    Mr White in his circular even implies that the scientist being criticised in the videos takes research money from Bayer. That is a lie. The TV programme makes it plain that the organisation to which he belongs (it employs hundreds of people particularly in areas such as plant genetics and biotechnology) has dealings with Bayer, not Dr Blancquiere himself. The only scientist in the video who - to my knowledge - has had research money from Bayer is the French scientist Dr Bonmatin. He is the one who 'found' effects at very low levels of imidacloprid when all other studies were saying that such levels were safe, and so he fell out with his funders.

    If anyone reading this has any trouble believing how twisted and unreliable the programme is, see the repeating of the scandalous comments made about Jerry Bromenshenk in the third video at 10 min 28 secs. I hope that you have your lawyers at the ready Jerry.

    Beekeepers have every right to be suspicious of the agrochemical industry. In the Netherlands in particular there seem to be problems of widespread environmental pollution caused by over-use of these pesticides. But videos like this are nasty character assassinations of people who will not compromise their scientific integrity, and it is an unpleasant thing to see.




    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...%3BMatches&z=4


    from the petition to ban chemicals in Britton

    Graham White, environmental campaigner, writer, beekeeper

    note: <----deleted note




    http://www.biobees.com/british_beekeeping/index.php
    Last edited by wildbranch2007; 02-22-2013 at 06:10 AM. Reason: deleted note
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,033

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Nice bit of detective work Mike. It confirms what many of us suspected. These folks aren't here for a rational discussion but instead to promote an agenda through whatever means possible. The irony is, I believe, the unfairness will just backfire on them since there should always be caution and concern about chemical use. This stuff only confuses the issue.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    syracuse n.y.
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    1,645

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    don't just believe what is said on this forum!
    Jim I think stromnessbees said it correctly, I would modify it slightly, I believe what is said on this and most forum's, but I go and check it out(if possible) before trying it or using it.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,122

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Okay, I go first, and then you.
    Still waiting Stromnessbees, for your report.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Millbury, MA, USA
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    1,652

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Okay, I go first, and then you.
    I'm running about 50% loss in one nuc yard. Still not sure what the cause is. But it is not within 3 miles of any neonics, has great flora around, and has been a great yard in the past. I suspect ppb is much of the problem. I didn't treat any of these nucs for mites [didn't even sample them] and many got very strong. I believe the mites built up more than usual and there are probably virus issues as well. My other nuc yard is doing well and is similar, so go figure. I haven't been able to pull the deadouts from the yard since it's about 1/4 mile through some deep snow to it. I sent some of the bees to Beltsville for them to check. Be interesting to see what they find.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,501

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    thanks mike ! Lobbyist was the first thing that came to mind when reading the first two paragraphs of that story. They try hiding themselves behind other stories but their writing formula still remains.

    Glad to see beekeepers here don't follow stories like sheep !
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  8. #68

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Still waiting Stromnessbees, for your report.
    Just remember Michael....only hold your breath until your face gets red.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Stromness, Scotland
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    122

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Still waiting Stromnessbees, for your report.
    I have no losses to report.

    Neonicotinoids are not used where I keep my bees, and with the exception of one small nuc which died of isloation starvation I have never lost a single colony during autumn, spring or winter, if a queen fails I unite with a nuc.

    The few losses I have had were swarms where the queen failed to mate or due to queens that became drone layers at old age.

    Bees without pesticide challenge need very little looking after (mainly food, varroa control, swarm control), there is no reason why they should dwindle away to nothing.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    I have no losses to report.
    Beemandan reporting:
    Same as above quote.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  11. #71
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
    Posts
    2,649

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    You know when i first read this I got pretty ticked that this type of stuff would be allowed on this site. I had hoped that the moderators would delete and ban those that are trying to do this stuff, after all one little reference to sarcasm will got you a slap on the wrist....... but i am at least pleased that almost everybody here is now seeing thru this stuff...... It is actually refereshing to see so many standing up and saying hey, my bees are in this and are fine....... maybe we need to keep looking........

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Erin, NY /Florence SC
    Posts
    3,361

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    I'm running about 50% loss in one nuc yard. Still not sure what the cause is. But it is not within 3 miles of any neonics, has great flora around, and has been a great yard in the past. I suspect ppb is much of the problem. I didn't treat any of these nucs for mites [didn't even sample them] and many got very strong. I believe the mites built up more than usual and there are probably virus issues as well. My other nuc yard is doing well and is similar, so go figure. I haven't been able to pull the deadouts from the yard since it's about 1/4 mile through some deep snow to it. I sent some of the bees to Beltsville for them to check. Be interesting to see what they find.
    Cam - I know for us in the past we have seen some our Grade one yards, ones that really thrived during the season, be the yards that suffered higher winter losses. We deduce among other things, more bees, more mites, more interaction with other bees afield, more virus, more bees, higher use of stores. I'd be interested to hear what you find? We had one really great yard we no longer use to winter because we realized it was a cold air drain and in an area very near the Catherine Welands south of Seneca Lake. That yard consistently had high losses due to moisture and cold. Have you considered this?

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
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    2,790

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Neonicotinoids are not used where I keep my bees, ... -stromnessbees
    Really? You state that with a high degree of certainty. Homeowners cannot purchase and use formulations of neonicotinoids there? Systemic formulations for pets are not available where you are (think of it: a pet owner puts a "top spot" neonicotinoid treatment on his dog, the insecticide is systemic in the dog, the dog urinates on some sod, the neonicotinoid in the dog urine is taken up by a flower in the sod, the neonicotinoid becomes systemic in the flower, a bee visits that flower to collect pollen and/or nectar ... you get the idea)?

    For me, it's difficult to picture a place in industrially- and agriculturally-intensive areas that would truly be isolated from neonicotinoid use.

    Bees without pesticide challenge need very little looking after (mainly food, varroa control, swarm control), there is no reason why they should dwindle away to nothing. -stromnessbees
    This statement really stuck in my mind. I keep bees in an area with heavy agricultural neonicotinoid use. I feed only in extreme circumstances, I have not used any treatments for Varroa for a number of years, and I still have not experienced the "dwindling" that is often presented as an effect of neonicotinoid exposure (the "cause"). The care I devote to hives is related more to population management issues (i. e., making the hive appropriately sized for the number of bees in it) and honey or food stores management, especially for overwintering.

    What sort of care do pesticide-exposed bees require that bees not exposed to pesticides do not need?

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
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    383

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    What Stromness failed to mention is that there is no varroa in her area either as Orkney is a varroa free zone.
    Leaving aside the neonicotinoids, beekeeping is a lot easier without mites and their viruses.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Stilwell, KS
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    1,581

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    It's hard to trust and article that cant even get some basic facts straight:

    Almonds make up more than 825,000 acres of California’s Central Valley generating
    more cash than both the California wine and tourism industries combined.

    The forecast is based on an estimated 740,000 bearing acres. Almonds rank as California's No. 1 tree nut crop with a production value of $2.3 billion last season:
    http://westernfarmpress.com/tree-nut...ther-good-year




    Tourism annually generates more than $75 billion in direct travel spending for the state’s economy:
    http://www.destinationanalysts.com/c...california.htm



    California wine has a $51.8 billion impact on the state $103 Billion on the US Economy:
    http://www.wineevents-calendar.com/c...mpact_on_state

    Since when is 2.3 > 75 + 51.8 ?

    The un-named eye witness can't even add 2 numbers.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,139

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    What sort of care do pesticide-exposed bees require that bees not exposed to pesticides do not need?
    "Pesticide exposure in honey bees results in increased levels of the gut pathogen Nosema"
    from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3264871/

    So perhaps Nosema care?

    Any sub lethal stress should be relieved at least somewhat but appropriate nutrition to facilitate imunocompetence.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Edinburgh, UK
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    223

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Lets not clutter this issue up with facts Ian.
    The bee-farmer in question has lost 2,150 hives, and has managed to salvage and re-combine from 2- 6 remnant hives into one decent sized one; by doing this he has cobbled together roughly 900 hives - with which he is trying to fulfill his remaining almond pollination contracts.

    I suspect he has a few other things on his mind right now - like financial survival - as opposed to organising pollen samples to be taken from his dead hives. I have no experience of what a migratory bee-farmer has to do at almond pollination time, but I would assume he is working 12-16 hour days and not getting much time to think about anything else.

  18. #78
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    Dec 2010
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    Edinburgh, UK
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    223

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Ummmm.....so you don't even know where this came from? You claim to have edited the copy from the beekeeper, but you don't even know who it is?

    deknow
    Where do you get this absurd statement from? I know exactly who the bee-farmer is; he's a personal friend who - for the moment - wishes to remain anonymous. Given the nastiness of the comments from people like you I am beginning to think he made a wise decision.

  19. #79
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    Dec 2006
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    Amador County, Calif
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    3,113

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    I tell it as it is.
    Well said Micheal !
    Love it, when a hard working keeper tells it like it is, no fluff, just the hard cold truth. Amen to that
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    Edinburgh, UK
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    223

    Default Re: Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    Got a reference or is 'another study' as good as it gets.
    Where was it published and who was the author.

    The Xerces Society report, Are Neonicotinoids killing bees, citing an EPA document quotes 148-1155 days for Clothianidin depending upon soil type.

    http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/upl...s-Society1.pdf

    The figure of 19 years was taken from the EPA's own document:

    UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
    WASHINGTON, D.C. 20460


    Office of Chemical Safety and
    Pollution Prevention

    1
    PC Code: 044309
    Date: November 2 nd, 2010
    DP Barcodes: 378994, 377955
    http://grist.files.wordpress.com/201...othianidin.pdf

    Degradation and Metabolism (of Clothianidin)
    Metabolism in aerobic soil occurred very slowly. At 20C, clothianidin degraded in two soils
    with a first-order half-life of 148 and 239 days (Hofchen and Laacher soil series), in seven soils
    ranging in texture from sand to silt loam with half-lives of 495 to 1,155 days (BBA 2.2, Quincy,
    Sparta, Crosby, Susan, Elder, and Howe soil series), and in a tenth soil with a half-life that was
    nominally calculated to be 6,931 days (Fugay soil series). 6,931 days is 18.98 years. NOTE: this is HALF-LIFE we are talking here! Even if you accept the lowest figure of 495 days - that means that HALF of the insecticide will still remain in the soil two years later; 1/4 would still remain in the soil four years later. If you go with the other figure of 1155 days half life, that is almost four years! So after 8 years, a quarter of the insecticide would still remain in the soil.

    NOTE 2: Under European Law it is illegal to license any pesticide that persists in soil for more than 120 days - so how did it ever get a license? Yet again, nobody knows.

    The reality of corn farming in the USA is that the same field is being planted with neonic-treated corn, or soya, or cotton year after year after year. So the burden of insecticide persisting in the soil could be truly massive.
    If a field is left fallow after a corn crop, it makes no difference - because the wild flowers which follow would still absorb the insecticide systemically, so their flowers in turn become toxic to bees.



    From the same document:

    "Clothianidin is a neonicotinoid insecticide that is both persistent and systemic. Acute toxicity studies to honey bees show that clothianidin is highly toxic on both a contact and an oral basis. Although EFED does not conduct … risk assessments on non-target insects, information from standard tests and field studies, as well as incident reports involving other neonicotinoids insecticides (e.g., imidacloprid) suggest the potential for long term toxic risk to honey bees and other beneficial insects."
    Last edited by Barry Digman; 02-23-2013 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Close quote

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