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  1. #21
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    Thumbs Up Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by D Coates View Post
    I've learned that posts from Stromm and Border are heavy on unsubstantiated and hyped up claims with very similar axes to grind. If anything, they do themselves a disservice because anyone who actually looks at what they post objectively realizes this and discounts them accordingly.

    I think that anyone who actually looks at my posts and does the math will realize what's going on:

    Would anybody bother to pay me for what I write?

    One the other hand:

    Who has got the money to finance PR companies and a small army of stooges which pretend that these pesticides are harmless?

    How much money do the companies earn on the sale of neonicotinoids, which they will lose if the beekeepers realize what is going on and demand a ban of these chemicals?


  2. #22
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Consider this...the weight of a neonoctinoid poison that is lethal to a bee...is 20 millionths of the weight of the bee....

    The contact acute LD50 is 0.024 g a.i./bee (micrograms of active ingredient per bee).[16] The acute oral LD50 ranges from 0.005 g a.i./bee to 0.07 g a.i./bee, which makes imidacloprid more toxic to the bees than the organophosphate dimethoate (oral LD50 0.152 g/bee) or the pyrethroid cypermethrin (oral LD50 0.160 g/bee).[15] Other insecticides that are equally or more toxic than imidacloprid include Spinosad, emamectin benzoate, Fipronil, and the neonicotinoids Clothianidin, Thiamethoxam, and Dinotefuran.[17]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacl...ffects_on_bees

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeb532 View Post
    Consider this...the weight of a neonoctinoid poison that is lethal to a bee...is 20 millionths of the weight of the bee....
    Nobody is arguing that neonoctinoids are not toxic if ingested by bees.

    That is a proven fact. Unfortunatly, forcing bees to ingest neonoctinoids in a lab is very different from real life situations.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeb532 View Post
    Consider this...the weight of a neonoctinoid poison that is lethal to a bee...is 20 millionths of the weight of the bee....
    That is impressive.

    Add to this the sublethal effects and you can go a further couple of decimal points downwards.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    And the LD50 for polonium in and average adult is 1 microgram. That would be 1E-05 millionths of the weight of a human.

    The problem is humans dont eat polonium, so it doesnt matter.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    now I am getting worried, not only am I old but I have to watch out for the neonics
    but actually what I have read said and I can't quote it doesn't have any affect on humans, but now that does bring up an interesting topic for another thread. are beeks human
    Actually Nicotinoids do have have an effect, we have on most of our neural cells nicotinic receptors*, which are activated by the functional (aka pharmaphor) backbone (nicotine) of these chemicals. So yes be scared/worried because at some point the dose level we are exposed to will reach threshold.

    BTW this is why I can see why it would effect the homing capacity of bees.....

    Cheers, Thomas. (Bio-medical science major, USC)
    *these receptors are actually called muscarinic receptors and are supposed to be activated by acetylcholine, but are also activated by muscarine (death cap mushroom), nicotine, caffeine etc.
    Last edited by praxis178; 02-22-2013 at 06:53 PM. Reason: additional info added

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by praxis178 View Post

    BTW this is why I can see why it would effect the homing capacity of bees.....
    Interesting anecdote to that:

    I had breakfast with two Californians yesterday and I mentioned bees. They replied that in the last couple of summers they often had bees flying into their houses and dying there.
    Apparently they had never noticed this strange behavior before.

    Of course I explained to them, that this might well have something to do with neonic pesticides ...

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Of course I explained to them, that this might well have something to do with neonic pesticides ...
    of course you failed to mention that there could have been many other reasons.

  9. #29
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    nashville tn usa
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Do neonics have any effect on the mite population? That's been my problem. I see documents of beekeepers that hive near multi acres of treated crops and have little problem. I my area very little agi areas....my bees still die. Are vaorroa mites resistant to neonics? Some of you PHD's should have an answer.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    The title of this thread implies that government and pesticide companies are conspiring to make and sell neonicotinoids. Where do the people who want such products to improves their production or reduce parasite problems or kill pests in their yards and gardens fit into this? Where do the consumers who want inexpensive food and fuel and other agricultural commodities fit into this?

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by praxis178 View Post
    Actually Nicotinoids do have have an effect, we have on most of our neural cells nicotinic receptors*, which are activated by the functional (aka pharmaphor) backbone (nicotine) of these chemicals. So yes be scared/worried because at some point the dose level we are exposed to will reach threshold.

    BTW this is why I can see why it would effect the homing capacity of bees.....

    Cheers, Thomas. (Bio-medical science major, USC)
    *these receptors are actually called muscarinic receptors and are supposed to be activated by acetylcholine, but are also activated by muscarine (death cap mushroom), nicotine, caffeine etc.
    I said no affect should have been low.

    Excellent question Chris! That's the reason that regulators "like" the neonics, since they are of very low toxicity to mammals and birds.

    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...%3BMatches&z=4

    We only need to look at the amount of nicotiine in cigarettes. The amount
    in a single pack exceeds the LD50 for an adult human. If Haber's rule
    applied, that smoker would be dead by the end of the day.

    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...%3BMatches&z=4
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post

    We only need to look at the amount of nicotiine in cigarettes. The amount
    in a single pack exceeds the LD50 for an adult human. If Haber's rule
    applied, that smoker would be dead by the end of the day.
    Your approach is too general:

    You need to check whether the binding to the receptor is reversible or not.

    Nicotine does not get attached permanently, the effect of one cigarette wears off very quickly, it can then be eliminated.
    You would have to smoke that whole packet in quick succession to get very bad effects.

    Neonicotinoids on the other hand have nearly irreversible binding to the receptors, hence a repeated dose of the chemicals will lead to accumulation and system failure.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    Your approach is too general:


    Neonicotinoids on the other hand have nearly irreversible binding to the receptors, hence a repeated dose of the chemicals will lead to accumulation and system failure.
    your approach is too general, where is your supporting evidence.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Stromnessbee: Do you have any explanation for the many stories of very successful beekeeping operations in areas where neonic treated crops are grown?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    You have no monopoly on concern for our grandchildren Mr. Bush. in a perfect world there would be no bad insects eating our crops and plenty of food for everyone. If you have proof that our grandchildren are being affected by these systemic pesticides please provide it. if you have proof that systemic pesticides are more damaging than our past widespread use of foliar pesticides please provide that as well.
    So we should wait until the damage is done to do anything about it? that is obviously a reasonable plan. Sorry about that extra eye son but you know we couldn't make assumptions.

    What happened to the idea that things need to be proven safe before use? We haven't learned that one yet?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Stromnessbee: Do you have any explanation for the many stories of very successful beekeeping operations in areas where neonic treated crops are grown?
    Yes I have my own thoughts about these stories, and I am sure many other beekeepers are thinking the same as I do.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    Yes I have my own thoughts about these stories, and I am sure many other beekeepers are thinking the same as I do.
    Please expand.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    There's a ton of corn within range of my bees. They may very well have memory issues. I have to repeat the stern warnings for them to stay away from it quite often.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride. -H.S. Thompson

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    So we should wait until the damage is done to do anything about it? that is obviously a reasonable plan. Sorry about that extra eye son but you know we couldn't make assumptions.

    What happened to the idea that things need to be proven safe before use? We haven't learned that one yet?
    Extra eyes Daniel? A bit dramatic perhaps? If my post was a bit shrill I apologize to Mr. Bush. I have my own personal reasons I would prefer not to air here.
    I think it is important to note that these neonics are undetectable in corn syrup though corn seed is commonly treated with it. On the other hand the empty calories in the super sized cups of corn syrup sweetened Mountain Dew I see the young people drinking and the resulting obesity actually are a proven health risk to them. Sorry about that spare tire son.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Video Documentary: Are Govt & Pesticide Industry Responsible for Bee Deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    Yes I have my own thoughts about these stories, and I am sure many other beekeepers are thinking the same as I do.
    Your thoughts are that....they are lying? Eliminates your creditable!

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