Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 52 of 52
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,178

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    sorry...doesn't pass the smell test. There are 1440 minutes in a day. young brood is constantly eating...it is laying in a pool of food.

    deknow
    I said it was fed 1500 times a day. Nothing about how often it eats. I am not sure the number of minutes in a day has anything to do with that. It works out to every so many seconds.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,286

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    Daniel,
    I don't see how that can be so. Wouldn't you expect to see bees w/ thheir heads in brood cells all the time? I know I am not as observant as others, but I have never seen what I thought was a bee feeding, putting food in a cell occupied by an egg or larvae.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,178

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    Mark, I cannot recall where I read the 1500. But regardless of the number. If bees are not placing the jelly in the cell. Where is it coming from? Does it require a bee place their head into the cell in order to feed a larva? The undisturbed brood I have seen is usually covered in bees to the point you cannot see brood at all.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
    Posts
    479

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    There are a lot of myths around queen rearing and as a couple of people have pointed out, that Steiner stuff (anthroposcopy) is quasi religious esoteric stuff and in my view has no place in beekeeping.
    Steiner wrote about bees and sun cycles but I don't think he was actually ever a bee keeper himself.

    I do a lot of grafting and I agree with almost every point Michael Bush has made on this thread.
    If there is dried up royal jelly at the base of a cell from which a queen has emerged, she was not short of food in the crucial 4 and a bit days days before the cell was capped over.

    Re. queens getting superseded, there is research to show that a queen introduced to a colony just a few days after she has started to lay is quite likely to be superseded.
    Ideally, a queen should be laying for about a month before being introduced.
    I think the problem with early introduction and subsequent supersedure is something to do with lack of queen pheromone.

    Some people also believe that queens which mate from mini nucs or Apideas are inferior in some way but I have not found this to be the case either.

    Rubbish in, rubbish out applies and if you start with bad genetics don't expect to produce good queens.
    Same applies to your local drone population.
    The other critical factor with open mated queens is the weather.
    In an ideal world you would get several good flying days 8-12 days after the queen has emerged.
    Last season our weather was so bad at times virgin queens were unable to fly for up to 3 weeks.
    Last edited by jonathan; 03-07-2013 at 12:10 PM.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,286

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Mark, I cannot recall where I read the 1500. But regardless of the number. If bees are not placing the jelly in the cell. Where is it coming from? Does it require a bee place their head into the cell in order to feed a larva? The undisturbed brood I have seen is usually covered in bees to the point you cannot see brood at all.
    Of course bees put the food into the cell so the larvae can eat it. But 1500 times a day? Not that nit picking frequency is all that important. I too see bees covering brood, just ahven't seen the feeding being done. Not saying it isn't done. I'd just like to see it happen.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,752

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    I've made two separate observations:

    1. If you put a larvae on a microscope slide and watch it, it simply eats the pool of food around it.

    2. It does not seem (if one watches a frame of brood in an observation hive) that the bees are adding food to the cell once a minute.

    When you see them with their heads in a cell with brood, they are there for several seconds at least.

    Have you ever taken a frame of brood out during an inspection and watched it for at least a minute? It does not appear (at least to me) that the brood is being "fed" (or that food is being added to the cell) once every minute. Ditto for an observation hive where the bees are not being disturbed.

    I know what numbers are cited (I don't recall at the moment...we may have even put a similar number in our book)....but it's always useful to doubt accepted facts, especially if you do some math and some observation and it doesn't jibe.

    I have an idea of how to run some more detailed observations (and record them) this spring, and I hope that I don't get too overwhelmed with other things so that I can do this.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sacramento,California,USA
    Posts
    3,872

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    The worms can only eat so fast. I don't see where 1500 visits a day needs to happen. One visit per day to drop off RJ for the worm would be enough, if a days supply was given at that time huh? I have no idea how many times the worm is visited myself, It may be once, it may be 1500 times, it may be more or less. Is it important to know?
    “When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world.” – John Muir

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,408

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    I do believe that this thread has brought up particulars concerning the feeding of queen larva, not larva in general. If you've ever raised a bar of queen cells, and observed them at almost any time before they were sealed, it is easy to see where nurse bees would be adding food to the cell at least 1500 times per day. Every time I pull a bar of open cells to view their progress, many of them have nurse bees in them, with only the tips of their abdomen showing. I can't see what they're doing in there, but I usually assume they're in there adding more royal jelly to the pool.

    I've manipulated conditions, and had the bees produce some very large cells, with large reserves of royal jelly. When I move cells to emerge into California mini cages, if it hasn't already been done by the bees, I gently remove some of the wax from the tips of the cells, exposing the cocoon. In doing this, I have observed that, despite how large the outer beeswax shell of the queen cell is, the space the queen cocoon occupies generally is only so big, and no bigger. Though cells can be underdeveloped and very small. thus affording the queen even less space for her cocoon, than she may utilize in a more spacious wax shell . I also consider, especially in my region, which quite regularly has very low relative humidity and high temperatures; that a reserve of royal jelly may have other, beneficial effects on developing queens, than its nutritional value.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 03-07-2013 at 10:11 PM. Reason: fixed their to there
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Nicosia, Cyprus
    Posts
    96

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    Do you think that it is important that they bees in a nuc eat the remains of the jelly in the queen cell. Some sort of effect on pheromones between the bees and the new queen?

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,178

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    The issue of frequency of feeding is about disruption of that frequency during grafting. You will have to decide for yourself if that matters. I know it is common to read that larva handled to long die. But I am sure that right up to the point of death. they where not being harmed at all.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,758

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    But I am sure that right up to the point of death. they where not being harmed at all.
    That seems illogical to me.
    BeeCurious
    5 hives and 8 nucs................... Trying to think inside the box...

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,113

    Default Re: Is there any scientific evidence that grafted queens are inferior?

    On the other hand, I've heard a queen producer or two accidentally leaving a batch of larvae untended for several days and they still survive. Developmentally delayed a bit if I remember correctly, but viable.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads