reversing hives ?

[Wesbee]

If I have 2 deeps, come spring my bees are in the top deep. so I read that I should reverse the deeps and start with the brood in the bottom. then in another thread I read about needing to make a "hole" in the brood nest to make room for the queen to lay eggs because they back fill around the top and keep making the nest smaller.
so my ? is, why not just let them in the top and as they fill the top of the frames it will push the queen and brood nest down naturally

[JClark]

This works to an extent but when the flow starts the nectar comes in faster than brood mature so the brood nest ends up getting back filled if the top is full while they wait for the brood nest to move down naturally. As a result, the hive senses that it is strong (space is limited in the brood nest) and resources are abundant (space is full above the nest). This signals the bees to start the swarming process. Once this is set in motion it really can't be stopped. As a result all extra resources go out the hive w/ the swarm instead of into your honey harvest.

Putting empty frames on top gives them a place to put the nectar instead of in the brood nest. If they are really strong you sometimes need to put empty frames into the brood nest as well. And sometimes they swarm regardless. Your goal is to suppress this instinct as much as possible so you can get honey and/or make splits to get more hives.

[NasalSponge]

Perfectly good option, remember they don't reverse in the wild.

[Michael Bush]

The reversing fairy does all the feral bees...

I don't reverse. If there is only brood in the top box, it won't hurt to reverse, but it's more work and I don't see the benefit. If there is brood in both boxes, you'll break up the brood nest and make them rearrange the whole thing...

[JClark]

I don't reverse. If there is only brood in the top box, it won't hurt to reverse, but it's more work and I don't see the benefit. If there is brood in both boxes, you'll break up the brood nest and make them rearrange the whole thing...

Good point. Should state I'm planning to reverse if the bottom box is empty and I don't have another box w/ drawn frames to put on top (this is my second winter--last year I put nothing on top and didn't reverse and had a swarm machine). I will use stored drawn frames first to achieve the same effect.

My main concern w/ flipping boxes in early spring (or adding a box) from a theoretical perspective is the fact that the cluster all of a sudden has empty space overhead that heat rises into. To me this requires increased use of honey to maintain cluster temps. I'm assuming that, in a strong hive, this is not an issue if they have enough stores/feed. Is this the case? Don't have enough real world experience to draw upon. Would imagine if the nights are still cold this will be rougher on the hive than if temps are warming.

[fieldsofnaturalhoney]

My main concern w/ flipping boxes in early spring (or adding a box) from a theoretical perspective is the fact that the cluster all of a sudden has empty space overhead that heat rises into. To me this requires increased use of honey to maintain cluster temps. I'm assuming that, in a strong hive, this is not an issue if they have enough stores/feed. Is this the case? Don't have enough real world experience to draw upon. Would imagine if the nights are still cold this will be rougher on the hive than if temps are warming.

If this is your concern, consider down supering.

[JClark]

If this is your concern, consider down supering.

Do you mean nadiring? Did this last year and they couldn't move the brood nest down fast enough to create space for the incoming nectar. So this would be the same as letting them move down naturally, correct? However, I did not super as I was sticking to the Warre protocol. This year I will try both on my Warre hive--put a box of comb I had them draw last fall on the bottom and a box of movable frames w/ foundation on top--and see which route they choose. Their cluster is still quite strong so they will be ripe for swarming in the spring. Think I have enough drawn frames to do the same for the lang--though it is a little small right now. Will have to go slow w/ them unless they explode next month. We'll see.

[fieldsofnaturalhoney]

Do you mean nadiring? Did this last year and they couldn't move the brood nest down fast enough to create space for the incoming nectar. So this would be the same as letting them move down naturally, correct? However, I did not super as I was sticking to the Warre protocol. This year I will try both on my Warre hive--put a box of comb I had them draw last fall on the bottom and a box of movable frames w/ foundation on top--and see which route they choose.

I do not know the Warre protocol, but yes down supering is the same as nadiring (which I believe still would be called supering, ok lets just agree to call it adding a box). Also if you already have a box of drawn comb for them, I do not think you will have the same problem as you did last year because the box of drawn comb is ready for them to move down into naturally, thus leaving the top space for nectar and honey. If you put this box on the bottom, and put the box of foundation on top at the same time, my concern would be giving them to much extra space to fast.

[squarepeg]

i only use a single deep with medium supers, so take this fwiw,

but if the bottom box is completely empty, with no brood, it make sense to reverse them so they have room to store nectar overhead.

i agree that it would be very bad to reverse if the broodnest is straddling the two boxes!

[Oldtimer]

The reversing fairy does all the feral bees... .

Yes it does them. Thay all swarm don't they? They don't give us any surplus honey, do they?

See -

when the flow starts the nectar comes in faster than brood mature so the brood nest ends up getting back filled if the top is full while they wait for the brood nest to move down naturally..... As a result, the hive senses that it is strong (space is limited in the brood nest) and resources are abundant (space is full above the nest). This signals the bees to start the swarming process.

Agreed

If you want to farm your bees for a bit of profit rather than just let them be ferals, do not be afraid to reverse brood boxes when it's appropriate, it's a very useful tool.

[Wesbee]

thanks guys, I think I,ll just wait untill i see what is going on in the hives in the spring and do what I think is best at that time . but now I see both sides and the pros and cons of each.
again thank you!

[Michael Bush]

>Yes it does them. Thay all swarm don't they? They don't give us any surplus honey, do they?

I have more effective ways to keep them from swarming.

[GLOCK]

[QUOTE=, why not just let them in the top and as they fill the top of the frames it will push the queen and brood nest down naturally[/QUOTE]
I tryed that last year and i ended up with 8 swarms .
I'm going to try many things this year{but not that} to get them to not swarm i just got a copy of NECTAR MANAGEMENT Principles and Practice By Walt Wright.
And i have The Practical Beekeeper and that has some good SPM in it also.
Plus i've been reading about SPM since Sept of last year. Thats a goal this year is to not have any swarms. Good luck.

[squarepeg]

>Thats a goal this year is to not have any swarms

there ya go man. (but it won't hurt to keep an empty deep or two around to trap one just in case )

[Acebird]

Because I don't mess with the brood nest much I like to remove the bottom empty box and clean it up. I will already have an empty box to place on top of the brood when I remove the bottom box. Then it is a case of waiting for the flow before I put on the third box which is the bottom box that was cleaned up. It helps to have your boxes all the same size. I have observed that the bottom box is mostly filled with old pollen which the bees will clean out fast after the hive has expanded a bit.

[squarepeg]

good move ace. do you move any honey frames up to the top when you add the third box?

[GLOCK]

I have 7 empty hives and i use all deeps plus i have 2 xtra dbl nucs and one TBH so if i get swarms i'm ok with it.

[squarepeg]

there are different ways to bait them glock. last year i didn't have any drawn comb, and only used mann lake's bait. came home from work on three occasions with bees in the traps. this year i'll be using the bait and some old brood comb.

[D.A.S.]

I have read Michael Bushes new book The Practical beekeeper this winter over and over, Love it.i love his method of moving the queen and her open brood to another box,leaving the capped brood, and one frame of eggs,and the flying bees too make a new queen. I plan to use this method. They will not swarm. Thanks Michael , can you elaborate?

[Acebird]

good move ace. do you move any honey frames up to the top when you add the third box?

If it doesn't have brood but most likely it does. Now that I have been at this a few years I have drawn comb and they go right into it as soon as I put the empty box on. I will pull up honey frames in a checkerboard fashion if the next empty box is foundation.