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Michael Palmer The Sustainable Apiary

35K views 74 replies 33 participants last post by  Michael Palmer 
#1 ·
I've known about this video (http://vimeo.com/23178333 part 1 of 2) for quite some time, but hadn't taken the time to watch them until last night. First, I want to thank Michael for sharing his vast knowledge with us and also the Prince William Regional Beekeepers (thanks Karla) for going to the effort to make this video series publicly available. I'm teaching a short course this weekend and plan to reference some of the great ideas presented by Michael. I really appreciated the historical references to Brother Adam near the beginning and the follow-on reference to Kirk Webster. I believe that the techniques presented in this 2-part series are applicable to anyone interested in breaking a package treadmill and wishing to become a more efficient and productive beekeeper.

I do have a couple of questions (hopefully Michael will find this thread)

1. One of the big messages I took away was: don't take resources from your biggest booming colonies to throw at your worst performing colonies, instead re-purpose these dinks into nucs. Of course this is pretty contrary to what is conventionally practiced. My question is: What methods do you employ to control swarming? Your video showed some monster colonies, making 250+ lbs of honey each.

2. What recommended adjustments do you suggest for different localities? In the Southeast, our honey flow is nothing like that in Vermont. Nectar flows start to peak in early April and usually stay strong through the end of May. June thru September are typically hard months for our bees due to the heat, which results in very little nectar. Getting nucs through this dearth can be challenging. Those around agriculture (cotton and soybeans) don't have this same problem, of course the heat is still an issue.

I definitely recommend setting aside some time to watch this two-part series.
 
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#2 ·
I've known about this video (http://vimeo.com/23178333 part 1 of 2) for quite some time, but hadn't taken the time to watch them until last night. First, I want to thank Michael for sharing his vast knowledge with us and also the Prince William Regional Beekeepers (thanks Karla) for going to the effort to make this video series publicly available. I definitely recommend setting aside some time to watch this two-part series.
Hey Astro Bee. Thanks so much for the shout out. And yes the biggest thankst o MP for allowing us to video and post and to Paul O who figured out how to do it in great quality.
We posted this video and merely asked folks for feedback. It has like 4,000 "views" and about 5 have given us feedback.
Email me off line and I can talk your ear off re adjustments for our locale.
 
#8 ·
Winevines,
I would be interested in what you have to say about adapting his method to the Southeast. Are you only interested in discussing this via pm and/or telephone, or is in this forum possible as well?
Well I am in the mid Atlantic really, not the South East so keep that in mind. Northern Virginia is a good 5 hours North of you I think. Maybe more. There are two significant differences in management that I have found over the years and they both are about food. For a single nuc of 4 or 5 frames, I have consistently found that they need fondant or other supplemental food by Jan at a minimum. One difference between us and Northern Vermont is that it is warmer here. Often too warm during winter- the bees are more active, break cluster, use up energy and hence, they need food in winter.

The other difference is no Fall flow- or at least not like folks in the North East describe. We get some nectar, but no way do we get supers of nectar past July and often it can be a dearth. So the nucs can need food as early as July or August, and again a few times in Fall, whereas it seems like in the far North 1 major feed in Fall is good. They probably shut down a little quicker up there too. Temperature and light. And this summer/Fall feeding is a balancing act- a dance between overfilling and overstimulating and giving them what they need. Sometimes you take out frames to manage.

I have come to prefer the 2 story nuc- I use a division board feeder upstairs a lot so it is really 9 frames most of the time. Reason I have come to like the 1 story is purely to have the food they need for a longer period of time, and in Spring, to buy some time as these overwintered nucs really want to expand. And I am talking about deeps

And lastly, I will say that I have started to treat the nucs with apiguard. Sometimes if you treat the Mother colony before you make them up that is sufficient, but last year, mite load was insane. I have lost nucs to mites and that surprised me- but Beltsville analysis proved the massive load that I was blind to. So I really learned from that- at least assess the mite load in the nucs as you would your full size colonies.
Hope that helps. You have to learn what will work for you in your area best.
 
#13 ·
Not a dumb question at all. I'm sure that "breaking a package treadmill" means different things to different people, but to me it means breaking the dependency upon package bees to replace deadouts. Package bees seem to be less likely to survive these days than say a decade or more ago. There have been many reports of early supercedure of package queens and of packages not overwintering well. I believe that getting package bees is probably not a great value for your beekeeping dollar. It is not uncommon to lose a good number of newly started package during the 1st winter. Factor that back into what you paid and you get a better sense on the "true" cost of your bees. I think you'll find that it starts to get pricey. This is not to say that package serve no purpose, but the current implementation doesn't seem to be a good value.
 
#14 ·
I have been reading everything I can from Michael, and picking his brain whenever I see him, though that can be hard when there are very many people around. He is in demand! I have been wintering nucs according to his system, for the most part. It has worked very, very well the last three years that I have done it.

Karla is spot on about the differences in our area versus New England. Like she and Astro say, we have little real flow in the summer and a minor flow in fall. Because of that, feeding is necessary to get them through winter. I winter mine in double mediums. If I feed them up in fall they make it until the early spring flows. The dearth in summer is not just a challenge for feeding, but the resultant robbing can be fatal to any weaker nuc. I have found that I have to make my nucs up strong and early. If I can make them up during the spring flow, they become established and can defend through the summer more easily. I also use robbing screens and sometimes I only feed in the evening. I use a division board feeder that stays in the top box year round.

This past year has been a bad year for mite buildup. I have lost 17% of my nucs, twice as many as previous years.

Fishman- Michael has great queens.
 
#20 ·
only feed in the evening
That's sad, but I found myself doing exactly the same thing last summer. I would give my smallest nucs about 6 oz of sugar water after dark several times a week. It was a pain, but did manage to get some weight on them.

This past year has been a bad year for mite buildup. I have lost 17% of my nucs, twice as many as previous years.
I've heard that same thing numerous times. I can't say that I've seen anything unusual with mites this year. I've got one colony that has struggled, but its still alive. I didn't resorted to treating it last year, but may give it some relief this spring. Overall, my colonies are all looking pretty good.
 
#15 · (Edited)
AstroBee - Thanks for answering my question.

This is my first winter with bees. I started with 4 nucs in the spring. They struggled all season due to our Colorado drought and my lack of knowing how to help them out. About half way through the summer, I finally realized that I needed to feed them pollen substitute and sugar. They started to grow, but had a very late start, and never built much comb.

I treated them for mites with Apiguard in November. They went in to winter having 3-4 frames of bees, each, and had not stored much honey or pollen. I wrapped each hive in a Bee Cozey, configured each hive with both a top and bottom entrance, and provided each with granulated sugar a la Mountain Camp. In other words, I did everything I could to help them through the winter.

The smallest hive was dead by the beginning of January. The other three seem to be doing okay. I threw a little pollen substitue into each surviving hive at the beginning of February. Just a few more weeks until it is warm enough to start full scale feeding of 1:1 sugar and pollen substitute.

I've ordered 4 packages and 1 nuc for this coming spring. I will start feeding 1:1 sugar and pollen substitue from day one this time. At this point, it is looking like it will be another drought year for us in Colorado. It will be interesting to see how the packages fare compared to how last year's nucs did.
 
#24 ·
He became one of our many collaborators (SARE language). One of the more experienced and wiser guides we met along the way. But the grant was written and awarded before we knew anything about overwintered nucs. Or had even made a single nuc. :)

if you are really bored, you can link to the appendix and photos here
I keep wanting to edit and update it, but have not gotten around to it.

http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FS08-223&y=2011&t=1
 
#25 · (Edited)
By going to meetings and not being shy, I have been fortunate to be able to meet and discuss beekeeping with many of the "names" in our industry. Meeting MP was one of best opportunities I have had. We have had MP speak to our club and I was able to host his queen rearing class at my apiary. Mike's thoughts on overwintering nucs has been directly responsible for any successes I have had in the apiary. He does not mince words, is an excellent teacher/lecturer and is always willing to take the time to share what he has learned from his experiences.

As a group, we beekeepers are lucky there are a number of quality people who are passionate enough to share their experiences with us. Mike strikes me as one of the best.
 
#27 ·
I would like to respond with a criticism of the Michael Palmer method, hopefully so someone can tell me where I'm wrong (MP himself, if he would like). I'm a big fan of his methods, and I greatly appreciate everything he has and continues to do for other beekeepers. I've used several of his methods in my own apiary.

One of MP's main points is in regards to smaller operators. Say that a man buys two packages. Maybe a few months later, maybe a year later, maybe a few years later, the packages fail (as colonies tend to do over time). So then they buy two more packages to replace the old ones, only to end up losing them later. Eventually, the individual's wife gets tired of him spending money on packages. Or so the story goes. The solution is to create overwintered nucs to replace your losses.

In a nutshell, say that you want to maintain 10 colonies. If you have a 50% loss over the winter, and you start with 10 colonies, you are now behind. But if you have an equal number of overwintered nucs as you do colonies, if you still have a 50% loss you just turn your nucs into colonies, and presto you now have your 10 colonies. The goal being to take under performing colonies in fall and turn them into nucs for next spring.

But why not just create nucs from splits in the spring, and overwinter twice as many colonies? Essentially, that's what you are doing. In the above situation, if you wanted to maintain 10 colonies, why not overwinter 20 colonies and expect a 50% loss? Then when spring comes around, take your 10 colonies and make splits early on from your least performing stock to get 20 colonies again, ready for overwintering? I see it more as a statistics game than a nuc game.

Now, back to the original point, or the guy that has two packages. If you tell that guy that the one solution to having his two packages NOT die out every year is to buy FOUR packages this year, well that's not much of a solution to his wife. "No, wait, I need MORE packages to ensure that they don't die, dear" If she had a problem with you spending the money on two more packages two years from now, why would she not have a problem with you spending the money on two additional packages today?

But, that part aside, which is more expensive, the two packages two years from now, or the extra equipment for two more hives (or nucs) today? In the end, I think it's probably more expensive to get and maintain a two story, MP style divided nuc than it is to just buy a package in the spring. Then when you add the costs of feed and medications, you are in the negative.

I think there is alot of merit to the numbers and/or nuc game for the mid to larger style apiary. For the small guy, I don't see this method as being advantageous. The only benefit that you get is a nuc that is ready to explode in the spring rather than a colony that is ready to explode in the spring, or a package that you can put on drawn comb in the spring.

Perhaps I'm missing something big though.
 
#35 ·
But, that part aside, which is more expensive, the two packages two years from now, or the extra equipment for two more hives (or nucs) today? In the end, I think it's probably more expensive to get and maintain a two story, MP style divided nuc than it is to just buy a package in the spring. Then when you add the costs of feed and medications, you are in the negative.
Then use individual nuc boxes. They will work just fine in your area.
I am a huge fan and have had great success with MPs methods. I started with 2 colonies in 2006. I have about 28 surviving winter right now - many with my own raised queens. I have only bought 3 packages since my first 2 in 2006. The rest of the colonies are from making my own increases and a couple of swarms.
 
#28 ·
Well in my case I pulled a frame of bees from a couple of hives and made a hive (one frame from my best hive) in my queen castle (10 frames). I put a new wax frame in the middle of the strong best hive (better bees Jay Smith). About a week later I removed all the QC and put the frame of good bees back into the good hive and pulled the frame with new wax and eggs and brood of various ages and put that in the nuc. Now I have a frame of QC from my best queen and my strong hive is out what? Nothing.
After I have a frame of capped QC I cut them off with a knife, put my dividers into my Queen castle and make certain all sections have a couple. In my case I had half of the sections laying eggs in a little while. I removed half of the dividers so now I had a divided deep. I did that a second time with the exact same results but I did not have enough new bees to make the winter. Last winter I had one hive make it, this winter I have 3 hives strong and two nucs my only problem is what am I going to do with all these bugs. No more bee treadmill for me!
 
#29 ·
It's early days (year 2 of serious nucs), but I also appear to be off the package treadmill. Winter 2011/12 I planned just as in paragraph 4 of the OP - actually almost exactly like that; I went in to winter with 12 10frame colonies in various configurations and 9 2 storey nucs budgetting for a 50% loss. It didn't happen. I had 100% survival.
This winter has been harder. I have lost 4 out of 12 in 10frame equipment, and 1 out of 18 in nuc equipment. Winter is not over yet, and it shows no sign of ending.
A few thoughts: For me the advantage is in the numbers. The original beekeeping course I went on at the U. of MN says overwinter in 3 deeps. That is 30 frames, but with the MP method I have 3 colonies with 30 frames not 1 and I am experiencing minimal losses. I am using Mel Disselkoen's timing and making these nucs with cells much as Minz is doing in mid-June. At my location there is a fairly continuous flow from then until the goldenrod ends in late fall and I have not had to feed most of them more than a gallon of Fum. B and based on new recommendations I'm reconsidering that.
I didn't buy packages last year, and I don't need them this year. I am using dedicated 5 frame boxes as I don't like dividing the deeps. My experience last year was that the sale of a couple of nucs and a lot of brood added to the revenue my apiary generated.
I am really interested in seeing how this turns out over time. I was guessing that I would lose 50% and end up with roughly how many colonies I need, but even with this tougher winter it doesn't seem to be turning out that way. I expect to be selling bees again.
What appeals to me about this method is that if you read the experience of MP, Mel Disselkoen, and Kirk Webster none of them are treating the nucs for mites and are having acceptable survival rates.
 
#30 ·
>>But why not just create nucs from splits in the spring, and overwinter twice as many colonies? Essentially, that's what you are doing. In the above situation, if you wanted to maintain 10 colonies, why not overwinter 20 colonies and expect a 50% loss? Then when spring comes around, take your 10 colonies and make splits early on from your least performing stock to get 20 colonies again, ready for overwintering? I see it more as a statistics game than a nuc game.<<

Yes, splitting your colonies in the spring is an option. I did that for decades. What about honey crop? Now I don't pretend to know how to keep bees in NC where you are. I do know that if I split a strong colony at dandelion bloom here in Vermont, I lose some part of my honey crop. If we get cold and wet weather following dandelion, I can lose much of my crop and my splits don't build up well. If we get hot dry, the same thing happens. You get hot dry and your flow ends early. So spring splitting costs you part of the crop because your flow is early on, early done. Yes?

Are your 5 remaining live colonies ALL strong enough to split? Some years yes, some years no. And if not, then what?

>>But, that part aside, which is more expensive, the two packages two years from now, or the extra equipment for two more hives (or nucs) today? In the end, I think it's probably more expensive to get and maintain a two story, MP style divided nuc than it is to just buy a package in the spring. Then when you add the costs of feed and medications, you are in the negative.

What does a full sized bee hive cost now a days? Nucleus colonies cost less to set up. The woodenware is less expensive, and the bees are free. How much time is spent in managing the production colony versus the nucleus colony? Do you not have to feed a production hive some years? Some years, production colonies suck down 4 or 5 gallons of feed, while a nucleus colony would take only one, two max. If you are a medicator of production colonies, you might like to know that summer made nucs don't need treatments.

>>I think there is alot of merit to the numbers and/or nuc game for the mid to larger style apiary. For the small guy, I don't see this method as being advantageous. The only benefit that you get is a nuc that is ready to explode in the spring rather than a colony that is ready to explode in the spring, or a package that you can put on drawn comb in the spring.

If only all our production colonies were ready to explode in the spring. Is that what you find? Really? I only wish it were true. I find colonies like that, but also colonies that are struggling to stay alive. What do you do with those? Equalize? Re-queen?

>>Perhaps I'm missing something big though.

Maybe you are. Do you buy queens in the spring for splits and re-queening? Do you buy into the premise that we can't have our own queens early in the season, so buy them from southern producers? My good friend in AL says he has trouble getting queens early enough. Really? In AL? Never would have thought that...but...If you look at nucleus colonies as being a queen with support staff, that premise changes. We can have our own queens as early as we want in the season. Good, tested queens.

And what does it cost your apiary in resources to set up summer nucs? A frame and a half of brood and bees and a frame of honey? Not much. What does a package cost? Way more. What does a split cost? Way more.

What loss does your apiary suffer every year? 50% you hint at. So with a 50% loss, are the remaining colonies strong? If not, what to do? Removing the old queen and giving the colony one of the nucs will amaze you. And that 50% loss won't happen in your nucleus colonies as it does in your production colonies. I see less that 10% loss in my nucs, but usually 15% in my production colonies.

I don't believe it is a case of large apiary versus small apiary. The benefits of having a supply of nucleus colonies in your apiary are many. Colony replacement and colony re-queening are two obvious reasons. Dr. Connor is right...having 2.5 colonies has its advantages. So was Brother Columban who, in 1905, recommended wintering nucleus colonies. The wintered nucleus colonies could be used to produce excess combs of brood that are used to boost production colonies for honey production. Or, take it further...the idea of using nucleus colonies as brood factories. That brood can be used to boost production colonies, boost cell builders, or to make additional nucleus colonies.

Raising your own stocks...I'm hearing George Imrie's voice...makes you a beekeeper and not just a bee haver.

And then there's Adrian Quiney's "F" word. It's so darn much FUN!

I could go on and on, but I gotta get back to work. :)
 
#34 ·
>>?
> If you are a medicator of production colonies, you might like to know that summer made nucs don't need treatments.
This is one statement I would think carefully about. Small sample size here... the only OW nucs I have lost all had high mite loads as the only sign of loss. Clearly the Mother colony had high mite loads when they were made up. Treating Mother colonies first and/or treating he nucs have increased my survival. it could be that some years the mite loads are higher coming out of Spring- this also seems to potentially be a new dynamic I am seeing in my area.
 
#31 ·
MP, you have influenced me trememdously on the value of producing your own nucs, both to have around in production season for brood factories and requeening, to overwinter to cover losses, or for building up hive numbers in your operation. Really, it doesn't take alot of resources to make a nuc as you pointed out, if you can raise your own queens to stock the nucs that's even better, that's something I have to work on as my success at doing that has been extremely low lately. I find that letting my queenless bees in nucs raise their own queens just doesn't cut it, too much time lost and low successful matings. I plan to make nuc production a big part of my future for all the merits that they provide for the beekeeper. John
 
#36 ·
I used to work for Mike here in VT, and the way we controlled swarming (besides making nucs) was to reverse the hives just around the dandelion flow, in all honey producing hives. Create space above the queen, the bees won't naturally move down to open space. The queen could be in a hive with empty comb down below, but could still want to swarm because the queen 'feels' the hive is out of space to lay brood. We would lay the hive down--then do brood counts, and checking the health of the hive etc. then replace the top box on the bottom board and continue the same way with the rest of the boxes.
 
#39 ·
Nucs are the best way to go for myself and my area. Three years ago I bought three packages for $225.00 and they were all dead by next spring. After learning how to make and keep nucs alive, I have spent almost nothing on my nucs. This past winter has been hard on my bees with a 50% loss of bees, lost 8 main colonies and 2 nucs, I am left with 8 main colonies and 6 nucs. With the way the weather has been over the past few years I just don't feel good about making splits in the spring for fear of losing to much honey.
 
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