epipens?

[RABray]

Twinbee, I have read the responses and have mixed emotions regarding the answers.

I was certified, no longer current, a Category 3 EMT and understand and agree with the responses regarding administering meds not prescribed to the person being administered to. That being said the same certifications and training states that digging out a splinter is considered an invasive procedure and is controlled just as the administering of meds.

I requested a pen, and get renewals, when I started beekeeping and will continue to do so. I have seen anaphylaxis and administered to those in it’s throws. It’s not pretty, it’s not nice and it is not just one specific set of symptoms on it’s onslaught but what it is always; is life threatening and usually rapid on it’s procession. Whether I administer my pens to someone else at my home or visiting my hives will be a decision I make at that time, based on the situation and conditions at that time, not exclusively on the legal issues raised in these posts. I do not run up and down the streets looking for splinters to remove either but if an acquaintance in true need asks me to help remove one guess what…I will be looking for my tweezers.

Rick

[Intheswamp]

Ok, I get it...

I have a friend to my house.

We walk behind the house, stopping a couple of hundred feet from the bee hives as I explain to him what I'm doing and my plans for adding some more hives, about the price of eggs in China, etc.,.

About that time a little hussy flies by that apparently has been arguing with one of her sisters. Having a bad hair day she decides the side of my friend's neck needs some bee venom therapy.

Naturally my friend lets out a few words and swats at the sting site exclaiming that he just got stung. I think to myself "welcome to the club". I tell him I'll get some benadryl for him when we get back to my house (my epi-pen is in my back pocket). He's no longer interested in the hives and says he'd like to go inside. On the way to the house he complains that he's feeling a little faint and that he needs a drink of water...I look and see what looks like a rash spreading up his arms. As we get closer to the house I hear his breathing become a little "wheezy" or something...different from what it has been. When we get inside he collapses into a chair and is definitely having problem catching his breath...a bit of panic is beginning to show in his eyes...his wife just now notices something is wrong. I tell his wife that I'm calling 911 that I think he's having a reaction to a bee sting. The friend for the first time complains that he's having trouble breathing and promptly vomits...that rash seems to have spread some. 911 dispatches an ambulance, but, living in a rural area 10 miles from the dispatch center it may very well be 15-20 minutes before it arrives. About that time my visitor's wife yells that her husband has fainted and isn't responding to her. I've still got the epi-pen that is prescribed to me in my back pocket, I would use it, but...

My friends color is changing...getting a little blue tint to the skin...and it's really hard to tell if he's breathing. I call 911 back and tell them what's going on....the ambulance is still at least 5 minutes away...and I've still got the epi-pen in my back pocket.

Finally the ambulance gets there they try to get a line in him, they stick him with an epi-pen, one paramedic gives me a discouraging look. Somberly they load him into the back of the ambulance and head to the hospital with lights and siren going and his wife following behind them. I watch them leave, hoping with all my heart that he makes it and is ok. My epi-pen is still in my back pocket...but I haven't broken any laws because I'm a deacon in the church, a local business owner, a former cub scout, a man that opens doors for ladies, a man of high morals and ethics, and I recycle my aluminum cans, too...I'm an all around upstanding law abiding citizen.

According to our nation's legal system that the way it's supposed to work.

I'm not knocking anybody's comments here about the legality of giving someone a shot with your epi-pen. Apparently, by the books it is illegal and subject to legal prosecution if someone wishes to press it. Good information has been shared on that. It is laws such as this that keep people from being good samaritans...the fear of lawsuits and even criminal charges by simply trying to help someone. Rather than help, people hurry on their way to avoid feeling guilty for not helping...letting "someone else" (hopefully) step in the gap for that person in need. The problem is that John Q Public has adapted the herd mentality and when one person "walks on by" it seems the rest of the people do, too. The people who say "**** the torpedoes..." and go to the aid of those in need (whether they help or not, but at least try) are the heroes...those that walk on by and turn their head, well, they're not really much of anything in my book.

Ed

[SippyBees]

But.. if your friend also had an unknown cardiac condition that YOU didn't know about also... and you DID give him the epi-pen... then the heart attack that definitely killed him was caused by YOU and not the bee. Maybe if you had decided to use that pen, you could have explained to your friend before he passed out what he needed to do and let HIM decide or his wife decide to administer the epi-pen. It is not a position I would want to be in.. and I don't envy anyone who would have to make that decision... but my training did not give me the choice in how to respond. All I am saying is that to those that choose to do it... do not take it lightly.. and do not consider it just a mild medication you are giving someone. The HELP that you think you are giving CAN kill someone just a quickly as anaphylactic shock.
AND.. I do not think it is wise for anyone here to encourage other people to give an epi-pen whenever they THINK someone may be having anaphylactic shock. It is a free country... if you can get an epi-pen... if you choose to use it on someone other than yourself.. then also be prepared to reap the results of your decision/ actions, but anyone who has read this thread has enough knowledge to at least know what potentially may be their reward for helping someone.. or thinking that they were helping.

[StacieM]

But.. if your friend also had an unknown cardiac condition that YOU didn't know about also... and you DID give him the epi-pen... then the heart attack that definitely killed him was caused by YOU and not the bee. Maybe if you had decided to use that pen, you could have explained to your friend before he passed out what he needed to do and let HIM decide or his wife decide to administer the epi-pen. It is not a position I would want to be in.. and I don't envy anyone who would have to make that decision... but my training did not give me the choice in how to respond. All I am saying is that to those that choose to do it... do not take it lightly.. and do not consider it just a mild medication you are giving someone. The HELP that you think you are giving CAN kill someone just a quickly as anaphylactic shock.
AND.. I do not think it is wise for anyone here to encourage other people to give an epi-pen whenever they THINK someone may be having anaphylactic shock. It is a free country... if you can get an epi-pen... if you choose to use it on someone other than yourself.. then also be prepared to reap the results of your decision/ actions, but anyone who has read this thread has enough knowledge to at least know what potentially may be their reward for helping someone.. or thinking that they were helping.

And this is where I think NO jury or judge, would find you guilty of anything, unless you KNEW of the heart condition. TBH, if said patient got to the hospital, epinephrine would be administered. If they have a heart condition and croak right there, well, same situation.

Again, I will say that I do believe from my research and reading that state laws vary. Some states don't even want EMT administering epi. Some states are more lax and will say that any first responder can administer it. Heck, in many states every school has an epi-pen and are willing to use it on any student who develops a need. Obviously the RX was not for that student particularly. And like I said before, in other countries epinephrine isn't even a prescription medication.

I also believe that I would willingly take a lawsuit from any "victim" whom I may stab with an epi-pen if they are stung by my bees and are developing an anaphylactic reaction. If they lived through the anaphylaxis and could sue me, I would gladly go to court and explain my side.

[Adam Foster Collins]

I have an epi pen. I understand that it's not something one should use on another person. For me, all the scary stories just made me worried. So I bought one just to have it. I have read that they can last for many months beyond their expiration, and that in the case of shock, even an expired pen is better than nothing.

It's really just a last resort for a true emergency situation.

I have several bottles of children's benedryl around as well.

Adam

[SippyBees]

I was told in my training.. that epi-pens after they expire will eventually crystalize in the pen... I assume it will not happen ON the expiration date.. however... if you inject someone and accidentally hit a blood vessel.. and then inject the crystals into the bloodstream CAN cause an embolism in the lungs >>>> DEATH. Wanna take that chance? Thats your business.... Do some googleing... even search this site... A doctor on this site already addressed this topic.
Better know what you are doing... there HAVE been people who went to jail for such beliefs already.... it is no small thing as suggested by some here.

[Intheswamp]

it is no small thing as suggested by some here.

Sip, I don't think anyone here has suggested that it is a small thing. You are beginning to spin your side of the debate.

Ed

[SippyBees]

Sorry.. I felt otherwise Swamp.. but.. I definitely need to get over it.. People will do what people do. And no matter what you or I say.. probably won't make a difference. I will mosey on down the road from this one....
Back to the beehives...

[Intheswamp]

I hear ya, Sip...sometimes we can't see the bees for the epi-pens.

Best wishes,
Ed

[dixiebooks]

And this is where I think NO jury or judge, would find you guilty of anything, unless you KNEW of the heart condition. <snip>

I think you are very much mistaken here. Whether you knew of a heart condition or not or whether the person died or not is immaterial. You will be found guilty of knowingly administering a prescription drug without a license to a person for whom it was not prescribed. You'd better be wearing your rubber boots because you will be in very deep stuff, I think, with ANY judge or jury.

Don't take my word for it, though. I don't live in KY. Ask these people: http://kbems.kctcs.edu/Legal.aspx

-js

[dixiebooks]

...<snip>... I call 911 back and tell them what's going on....the ambulance is still at least 5 minutes away...and I've still got the epi-pen in my back pocket....<snip>

At that point, why would you not mention to the dispatcher that you have an epi pen in your back pocket that is prescribed to you and it is in date? You may luck up and get permission to administer it and then you'd be covered. -js

[GLOCK]

I have one makes the wife happy i got hit around 70 times last year and i'm still alive.
She got hit one time and she was fine if i lived by myself i probably would not have one .
They do only have like a year shelf life i think i my be wrong.

[Intheswamp]

At that point, why would you not mention to the dispatcher that you have an epi pen in your back pocket that is prescribed to you and it is in date? You may luck up and get permission to administer it and then you'd be covered. -js

Who can give permission and also cover my behind? I'm supposed to trust somebody on the phone telling me I won't be prosecuted? I'm a law abiding citizen. I don't think a 911 operator could get a judge and lawyer together and the paperwork done and delivered to me giving me immunity from criminal prosecution or possible lawsuits in time to administer the epinephrine...so I continue to be a law abiding citizen and keep it in my pocket without fear of prosecution or lawsuits. The law protects the victim from me possibly hurting them (even though they are in a very serious condition and could use the help) and it protects me (as long as I follow the law) from criminal prosecution or law suits...that's the way the law is supposed to work,...right?

[dixiebooks]

what it would do is give dispatch (trained in medical emergencies in most places) a chance to talk you through the situation to help determine what is really going on. I'm not saying they would OK the administration of the drug because I don't know. I'm just saying that if they did then i think you may have a fallback in that someone in 'the system' gave the go-ahead. Just throwing it out as a possibility. again, best to consult your doctor (and be HONEST with him about your intentions) and your lawyer (which I am not - I'm just an EMT) and consider having benadryl on hand rather than epi. -js

[Intheswamp]

I understand where you were coming from, James, but I don't think the 911 operator could give me immunity from the law and if sued or arrested I would still be needing to pay a lawyer. With "911 permission" it would still be a violation of the laws that so many have cited on here. Maybe the laws need tweaking regarding this issue.

I haven't contacted a lawyer regarding using the pen on someone else, but I explained to my doctor why I wanted the epi pen and he did not hesitate to write me out a prescription...and he knows I'm not allergic. ?

Ed

[dixiebooks]

Ed- PM sent. -js

[MaydayMalone]

I just had my family doctor write me a prescription for an epipen last week just because I wanted to put an end to my sister's constant nagging about how I should have one. Sheesh! When I went to the Pharmacy to pick it up, it was $40 for a package of two with my insurance ($375 w/o insurance). The Pharmacist asked me if I really wanted it. I ended up not getting it.

I work my hives alone. They are placed far enough away from any houses and are on posted land. I don't have any allergic reactions to stings, so why blow $40?

I had never seen an epipen before last week. It reminded me of the old Atropine auto-injectors that we had during the Gulf War to counter the effects of chemical nerve agents. It's a spring loaded injector that you would slam into your thigh releasing a one-inch long, THICK ASS needle into the muscle. GEEZ that just sounded so uncomfortable. I'm glad that I never had to use them.

If you are in a populated area, have bees in close proximity to a neighbor, or know of someone that has an allergy to bee stings.....I would invest in one for the liability purposes.

AutoinjectorMarkI.jpg

These are the auto-injectors used by the U.S. military. They are identical in nature to the epipen.