Minimizing the genetic input of mediocre stock

[Adam Foster Collins]

I am wondering whether or not people do anything specific to minimize the genetic input of mediocre stock in their breeding program.

You breed from the best stock; grafting and creating drone colonies, but don't the middle-of-the-road colonies contribute to the pool through drone production?

Do you maintain breeding yards that only have the finest stock, and isolate them? What if you can't isolate? Would you then make an effort to minimize drone production in hives that you weren't really excited about? Or are the focused efforts of "breeding from the best" enough to simply outweigh the contributions of the lesser stock?

Thanks,

Adam

[Ian]

I know breeders will saturate the area with drones, that always helps.

[Adam Foster Collins]

And maybe that's all they do - maximize the desired genetics. I just wonder if there's anything done to minimize the less desired.

[Ian]

how do you determine less desired genetics, ?
anyother colony other than the one your pulling eggs from?

so many variables influencing our hives at any given time, all reacting accordingly, how do you determine which colony is not responding accordingly?
other than cases of chalk brood, AFB and such

[jrbbees]

you can place green drone frames in those hives. remove and freeze every 10 days. that will help reduce the drones from those hives.

[Beregondo]

Removal of rogue genes is as simple as requeening with a queen of known, more desirable traits, isn't it?
(Obviously replacement selection has to be done thoughtfully to avoid restriction of diversity and bottle-necking one's breeding program.)

[ptmerrill]

Michael Bush

I have heard you mention the breed from average stock theory several times. Do you practice this? Where does Brother Adam mention this? I have read most of his books and cant recall reading it. Where does Miller mention it? Im not trying to challenge you just want to read more about it.

[Nature Coast beek]

Good read on the subject for smaller scale queen producing and control of stock. Maintaining Drone Holding Colonies (DHC) is discussed: Larry Connor on Drone Saturation for Small Scale Operations

13.2 drones per virgin for mating is stressed as being the mean in previous queen mating studies (the math on drone frame amount is in the article) as well as the need for maintaining genetic diversity. From the experiences of Dr. G.H. Cale, Jr. made working with the Starline and Midnite hybrid bees back in the 50's, the DHC should be moved to within 1/4 - 1/2 mile of mating yard. The distances were tested with Cordovan trait used as marker.

[Daniel Y]

I would not agree with the breed from average stock myself. How to breed better stock is very well known and proven time and time again. How to apply those methods to honey bees and avoid the problems with the sex gene is unique to the bee and a problem that prevents getting the same results as they do with other animals. I am not sure C.C. Miller or Brother Adam either one would have been aware of this distinction. They may have hit upon better success by simply widening the group they selected for breeding including more and more of the less desirable colonies in the pool. Net effect would be to breed more "average" bees due to need for more colonies in the breeding pool.

My thinking would be more along the line of still breed the best to the best which is the proven method. but in the case of honey bees it needs to be a large number of best to a large number of best. Rather than exceptional individual hives. breeding needs to be done more on an exceptional apiary basis. Obviously not every colony in an entire apiary can be the best. so there is a lot of room for less than best in that case. So is less than best being described by the old timers as average?

I have seen it suggested that you produce nucs from your worst hives. In that case it is more an issue of a short term solution to how to get the most out of your resources. why weaken a strong hive with potential of production for that year over an attempt to save a failing hive. Provided the queen that produced that colony is eliminated and the cross that produced her is prevented from happening again. I agree the individual bees should be kept for there life time. But the genetics you do not want in your apiary, and that queen produced drones. Her genes continue on through her drones. You would want to take measures to remove them as well.

[ga.beeman]

if you want the best of the best than AI them and you know what you have. I bet you will still have some duds in the offspring. but that is the best way to go, then you know what hives produced the drones.

[Michael Bush]

> Do you practice this?

Not exactly. I try to maintain as many lines as I can. What I choose when grafting, though, are the more booming hives. But I only replace the lines I think are inferior. In other words the ones that languish or really go slow. I don't requeen all my hives with sisters from my most outstanding mother.

> Where does Brother Adam mention this? I have read most of his books and cant recall reading it.

I don't have my library handy (as I'm in the process of moving) but I'm fairly sure it was in "In search of the Best Strains of Bees". Seems like it was somewhere between 1/4 of the way and 1/3 of the way into the book.

> Where does Miller mention it?

C.C. Miller doesn't do it or recommend it, but mentions it:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmillerm...nceofselection

2nd paragraph down from "Importance of Selection"

[ptmerrill]

Thanks Michael Bush. I found the sections where Brother Adam talks about it. Page 48 and 49. It is indeed in In search of the best strains of bee.

[ptmerrill]

In search of the best strains of bees.